Comparing yourself to others

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 04 Sep 2010 15:41

I am sick and have nothing to do so here is a topic I wanted to create for a long time but never did. I dont know where to post it getting started, tips, here, or my blog so here it is. I have read a few posts on it but never a topic addressing it. Dont take this as OMG i suck at footbag.

I have always compared myself to others. (Mainly Vasek, Jorden, Moran, Biarda, Yogan, Cozens, Empty, Bear, Damian, and that Czech guy Ivan) In doing so I think it made me a better player. There have been a few videos where I have emulated and hit every move in that video.

However i think it also has its negative sides as well. I think it has made footbag more frustrating for me. I try to keep pace with them but I feel like any of those players can hit any of the moves I hit if they really cared. (which I doubt is true

) I don't know.

Part of the problem is that I have only seen them play on video. (this seems like an excuse for me justifying that they cant hit their moves all the time) However I dont know if it took them 622 tries to hit X move. And when I see posts like this

Olav wrote:Don't compare yourself with the others, it won't help you. I mean... everyone has a diferrent style, use diferrent tricks. We all are (luckily!) diferrent. Someone hits Whirlwind after a year? So what?! If you can't hit Symp Whirls because of Shin Splints, keep away from them. It's your privilege.

I just shrug and say well "Easy for you to say. You are one of the best in the world."

This next part is gonna seem a little braggadocios but it really isn't. It seems impossible for me to watch a video. I mean it doesn't matter how good or bad they are I always find something they are better at than me. Its seem the only video I can watch is one where this really really good player has bad form on something I am good at.(atleast i think so) However even that is difficult because he hits a move out I havent even hit.

Lastly it seems every single time I play my sessions are geared towards attempting to 1 upping other (better) players.

I think this is the first thing I would tell a new player not to do but I do it myself. But I mean Damian hits swirling torque (to bedwetter

) I guess I should hit swixie torque.(i havent just an example of something I tried) Or Cod hits all these new calf moves. Guess I should hit some harder ones.

From the posts that I have read it seems like this is the worst possible thing you can do in footbag. (toe scraping aside) However for me it seems like the best thing when it turns out well and the worst thing when it doesn't. I just keep comparing myself to other players even despite different styles and trick seections. Tips and comments would be awesome about your experiences with comparing yourself to others

Sergey · Post by **Sergey** » 05 Sep 2010 03:58

I don't have a better answer than this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvOUVil7W5s[/youtube]

PoisonTaffy · Post by **PoisonTaffy** » 05 Sep 2010 06:48

Very interesting video, thanks for sharing!

While watching it I mused that if your goal is to have fun, then comparing yourself to others is destructive, but if your goal is to beat them, then comparing yourself is vital.
What's your goal?

Post by **Zac Miley** » 05 Sep 2010 07:00

I compare myself to Matt Kemmer and Jay Boychuk all the time, and it's very healthy. We're all very knowledgeable of each other's strengths and we end up making the others better. Comparing is not a bad thing, unless you have an easily bruised (and unfixable) ego.

PoisonTaffy · Post by **PoisonTaffy** » 05 Sep 2010 07:20

I'm sure there's no argument that having nearby people to play with, talk with and compare yourself to is great and healthy (you have my envy on having that luxury), but having them only on a monolithic video is a whole other story.

When playing with better players i know and can talk to, I feel that they are partners/mentors, from which I wish to learn and whose approval I seek.
When it's someone I don't know or just met, or worse yet, a person on a video, I often can't help but feel like the other player is a rival I must be superior to. I think the original poster wanted to discuss the latter, whether it's acceptable, beneficial or destructive, etc.
(p.s, correct me if I'm wrong, nameless original poster).

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 05 Sep 2010 07:45

PoisonTaffy wrote: What's your goal?

To have fun. But i think I have fun by getting better and seeing improvement.

Zac Miley wrote:I compare myself to Matt Kemmer and Jay Boychuk all the time, and it's very healthy. We're all very knowledgeable of each other's strengths and we end up making the others better. Comparing is not a bad thing, unless you have an easily bruised (and unfixable) ego.

Yeah but you are all pretty good players. They may be a little better at a given time and you may be a little better a certain time. However you are not seeing edited highlights of "flawless" play. About the last statement

I just dont know if it is reasonable to hold myself to the same standards as say Jorden who has been playing for i dont know 6 years while I have been playing like 7-8 months.

PoisonTaffy wrote:When it's someone I don't know or just met, or worse yet, a person on a video, I often can't help but feel like the other player is a rival I must be superior to.

Exactly. We all know that (pick someone) is better than me but I cant help but feel disappointed and embarrassed when I dont go 5 consecutive minutes without a drop like the the video. Even if the video edited out all the drops. Or when I dont hit some huge trick first time like the video even if they edited out all the drops.

Post by **Zac Miley** » 05 Sep 2010 08:22

Matt, Jay and I all live very far apart, and mostly communicate through highlights (even worse than videos

).

Obviously it doesn't feel good to know that Jorden is so much better than you, but in the context of improving in footbag, who cares? This is what made David get better so quickly, except he actually did something about it. He's not especially gifted with footbag - watch his earliest videos - but he played 3 hours a day, comparing himself to better and better players. It's a good thing for footbag, but like I said, if your ego is bruised easily, then maybe it's bad emotionally.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 05 Sep 2010 10:33

Zac Miley wrote:who cares?

My first thought was to give a smart-ass answer. But i guess it is just motivation I guess

Zac Miley wrote:This is what made David get better so quickly, except he actually did something about it. He's not especially gifted with footbag - watch his earliest videos - but he played 3 hours a day, comparing himself to better and better players. It's a good thing for footbag, but like I said, if your ego is bruised easily, then maybe it's bad emotionally.

I really hope I dont have an ego.

Oh and that was an awesome video. And I think I have found my footbag "rival"/ version of matt kemmer and jay boychuk

Post by **Zac Miley** » 05 Sep 2010 10:52

Footbagger007 wrote: I really hope I dont have an ego.

Every single good player I can think of and have met has a massive ego. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, just that you're confident in yourself. You can call it self-esteem or confidence or whatever you want, but it's important for being successful in life as well as footbag.

Jorden · Post by **Jorden** » 06 Sep 2010 03:03

Sadly, this is a very common feeling in footbag; the notion of "catching up".
I honestly don't think it is very healthy, especially for new players.

Most of the top players I can think of reached their level simply through their pure excitement of playing the game. Putting many hours in a day in the early stages was for pleasure and almost never a chore, which allowed them to achieve results quickly. Watching footage of others is for inspiration and research only (Note: it's important to only study footage of top players. Avoid learning bad habits!).

Now I'm not saying monitoring your progress or thinking critically about your game isn't important. But for something so individualized and self-expressive, WHO CARES about the rate someone else is learning? Footbag is a personal journey, and if you play for all the right reasons time frames really shouldn't matter.

For instance, when I first started it took me 2 WEEKS of trying to hit my first around the world. And that was only in socks.
It took me at least 3 MONTHS to learn the correct timing for clipper.
Apparently it took Lon Smith 3 years to go guiltless...? Look at his form now

Instead of worrying about the race, take the extra time learn your foundation tricks perfectly. Then your game will eventually plateau way beyond most players anyway.

Keep in mind it is society's conditioning (*coughusacough*) to make you think that to be successful in anything you must be better faster stronger than the competition. That is not true in many areas of life, and especially not the case in footbag. He (or she) who has the most fun wins!

If you're doing things like counting the total minutes of your sessions (or counting down till the end of sessions), hitting combos simply because someone else did in a video (i.e. keeping up) and/or hitting drills that you don't find fun, maybe it's time to really think about why you're playing.

If not pleasure for the sake of it, then what else???

JM

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 06 Sep 2010 04:01

Woah

Thanks for that post. It is kind of embarrassing having referenced you.

Footbag is never a chore. More of something to do when avoiding chores. I think most of the players I referenced are "world class" at somrthing in footbag.

Jorden wrote: If you're doing things like counting the total minutes of your sessions (or counting down till the end of sessions), hitting combos simply because someone else did in a video (i.e. keeping up) and/or hitting drills that you don't find fun, maybe it's time to really think about why you're playing.

Counting minutes? No! The moves yes. But I think it is only because I have trouble thinking of moves to do on my own.(bad justification) Drills? I only have on drill that I do.

The post was not intended to be "why should i play if jorden is better than me"
Zac, I thought youbwere talking about an "inflated ego." To the point of arrogance and thoughts of self importance.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 06 Sep 2010 07:14

When I first started all we (Jason Crook and I) had was "Raw Shred", "Tricks of the Trade", and some Montreal Tourney footage from '93. Everyone was already good and my personal opinion about what I was seeing was so far off from reality. I thought combos and even moves were one time flukes. That this video was the only testament to their skill level. I had never seen it live, so my guesses were purely that.

It wasn't until Funtastic that I got to see real freestyle in person. Rick Reese walked up to me and claimed swirl was the easiest 3 add. Then he "ripped" off 12 in a row without moving his support leg. I realized then that I was never going to 'catch' anyone at footbag and to just do my best with what I got.

Later I was misguided to believe that I needed to develop my own game, and that certain 'combos' were reserved for 'certain' players. For example ducking moves were reserved for Eric Wulf., so if you were gonna hit one it had to be as good or better than his. Else you were posing.

This was totally false, but that's what I thought and trained against, hense half a million rake tricks

Today I know better and just play for fun. Much better now than I have ever been, because the tricks are for me, not for footbag. If that makes sense?

PoisonTaffy · Post by **PoisonTaffy** » 06 Sep 2010 07:41

FlexThis wrote:Else you were posing.

Ugh, so 90's

Codey, you asked to share some experiences. Here's mine:
When I just started freestyle footbag, not that long ago, two other players were making their first steps in footbag as well. Both were (and still are) very talented (mad ankle flex!) and actively posting videos on modified. Their game put mine to shame, flat out. It was impossible for me to just shrug it off and do my thing; No matter how I looked at it, to me, their videos were a proof that I suck. I'd say that there was a period of about 6 months in which I wasn't sure if I'll stick to it, feeling that there's nothing I can contribute to the sport and that this bitter feeling will prevent me from gaining any benefit from the sport.
I did end up benefiting immensely, and perhaps even contributing a bit here and there. Good thing it was just too damn fun for me to quit.

Dat · Post by **Dat** » 06 Sep 2010 23:22

Last fall I took a really fun and insightful sports psychology class, focusing on motivation and performance. In psychology, what you guys are talking about is called goal orientation theory. Goal orientation theory describes ego (comparing with others) vs mastery/task (measuring personal progress) goal orientations.

There are a lot of resources out there on goal orientation theory, including applications using strategies to guide people away from ego orientation towards mastery orientation. One older one is called TARGET. Some good additional search terms to include are "sports psychology", "motivation" and "motivational climate".

Psilocybe · Post by **Psilocybe** » 08 Sep 2010 22:16

Zac Miley wrote:This is what made David get better so quickly, except he actually did something about it. He's not especially gifted with footbag - watch his earliest videos - but he played 3 hours a day, comparing himself to better and better players.

David..not especially gifted with footbag? I beg to differ. I'm pretty sure hes been amazing the whole time. His earliest videos are f'in amazing! Seriously.....who has torque, atomsmasher, drifter, eggbeater, ripwalk, spinning whirl, PS whirl, blurry whirl, pdx torque, vortex down after a single year? How is that even possible? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If he really played 3 hours a day it definately makes sense...but still, who can play that much without injury?

http://www.fourkast.com/media/videos/ar ... avens-july
http://www.fourkast.com/media/videos/ar ... ns-this-it - mobius after roughly 6 months of playing? really?

I'm pretty sure he was better after 1 year, than I am after 4.

Laroche · Post by **Laroche** » 09 Sep 2010 05:42

David certainly put his work in, I've kicked with him from tiltless level to what he is now.. he wasn't some phenomenon, just a hard worker, and it took a long time for it to all pay off.

Post by **Zac Miley** » 09 Sep 2010 05:53

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y86HKwYDsqM[/youtube]

Psilocybe · Post by **Psilocybe** » 09 Sep 2010 07:27

Everyone has to start sometime. ^ That video must be within a month or two of him starting?

Maybe its just different definitions of "phenomenon" we have. Is it someone whose (time spent playing)/(skill) approaches zero? Or is it someone whose (time since starting)/(skill) goes to zero? Davids first ratio may be crap, but his second is certainly astounding. A better question might be, who would be a better candidate? I always heard Vasek hit all BOP's during his first session, but who knows how much someone practices? Maybe his first session was 6 hours long.

So really, the first definition of "phenomenon" is effectively unmeasurable, and therefore can't be used. Nobody knows how much someone else plays. All we really know is when someone started (primarily thanks to this forums "Joined:"), so this ends up being the central criteria when we judge ourselves and others.

Which brings up another point: maybe if this forum didn't display "Joined" so obviously, there would be a whole lot less comparing going on. This is probably a good thing.

PoisonTaffy · Post by **PoisonTaffy** » 09 Sep 2010 09:52

I don't buy into the "just hard work" thing, either. I think it's a myth.
Work effectiveness is strongly affected by the amount of talent one has, and there's a limit to how much effective work can be put in, it's not infinite. Put those two together and realize that a hefty amount of talent is a must in order to get to the top.

Psilocybe · Post by **Psilocybe** » 09 Sep 2010 10:17

^ Yeah, plus theres also the issue of muscle memory, which does not always work like we'd want it to. If you program bad style or form into it, it can take an exponential amount of time to unlearn-it, and then re-learn it the correct way. I'm just saying what we all know - not all practice is good practice.