Footbag = alternative sport

[CRKDMike]

I just want to pose my opinion here regarding this sport we all call footbag.

I always hear fellow freestylers talk about how they are tryig to spread the sport as much as possible. This is a wasted effort. I have heard interviews where players believe that if they promote freestyle footbag, they will be increasing the audience, and essentially make it possible for the pro footbaggers to make money doing this.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but freestyle footbag will never accumulate a huge interest from the general public. It has been, and is destined to be an alternative (niche) sport that is done for fun, not money.

Things happen too quickly for the general public to realize what they have just seen, and appreciate it more than they would a circus act, or magic show. Yes it is physically demanding, and takes talent and hard work in order to be good at it, but most people will never respect that because it is too fast and hard to grasp visually.

There will never be enough interest in freestyle footbag for it to become a mainstream sport. I don't think there will even be enough interest for tournaments to generate enough income to pay the participants a significant amount of money over and above the costs for that participant to get to the tournament.

I'm not saying that it is useless to try, but we should all be more realistic when it comes to this sport, that way people will at least think we aren't completely crazy to think that this sport will ever be anything more than a sideshow.

It is essentially juggling with your feet. So unless something drastic changes about the sport, I don't see juggling with your hands (or feet) becoming popular at ANY point. Especially since most of the time it is done by sweaty middle-aged men with their shirts off, wearing tiny shorts, and not paying attention to moves that look appealing, but rather paying attention to moves that get them the most points. All in an effort to win a tournament that ends up costing them money.

This sport will continue to gather interest only from people who love the sport, and how many people do you know that love this sport, outside of the people you kick with, or the users on this forum....

[james]

Agreed. Beyond the initial 'wow' factor, there is nothing to keep someone who doesn't play interested in watching it. The only way it could be 'mainstream' is if enough people actually do it, and again, this is not likely to happen because as you said, it's a niche thing. Juggling with the feet. I see potential if it is allied with football freestyle tournaments, because that already has a wide and willing audience. I don't know why efforts have not been directed in this area yet...
So yeah, be realistic, but that's no reason to despair :p
I play because I love it, and it's a damn shame that the best of the best cannot pay their bills with their abilities, as for practically almost any other skillset/sport.

[CRKDMike]

Whoa, football freestyle tournaments? Google here I come!

Good points, and I'm kind of surprized that the first reply to my abrasive post is one from a member who sees things as clearly as I do

[boyle]

Freestyle football is really progressing in the organisation side of the sport (which is something they were a long way behind in for a long time, but they are getting quite serious now. We are working on a footbag/freestyle football event that will hopefully happen in September here in Chile.

[boyle]

In terms of the alternative sport, that doesn't mean we should just let the sport stagnate - we can't all keep playing for ever. What we should be looking for is to expand our own circles by one or two players, not necessarily to become a huge sport. Unfortunately you are probably right, we will probably continue to pay for the experience of winning (or more than likely, not winning) competitions.

Quite simply because we do love the sport, and the community around it. It is small, but it is really quite global. It is an underground movement, an obscure part of the sports movement. It's also quite fun, so if we, the players already involved inside the community can show that we are enjoying it, and having a good time, maybe that will inspire some others to also be involved.

[CRKDMike]

In terms of the alternative sport, that doesn't mean we should just let the sport stagnate - we can't all keep playing for ever. What we should be looking for is to expand our own circles by one or two players, not necessarily to become a huge sport. Unfortunately you are probably right, we will probably continue to pay for the experience of winning (or more than likely, not winning) competitions.

Quite simply because we do love the sport, and the community around it. It is small, but it is really quite global. It is an underground movement, an obscure part of the sports movement. It's also quite fun, so if we, the players already involved inside the community can show that we are enjoying it, and having a good time, maybe that will inspire some others to also be involved.

My whole inspiration for this post was from Dana White, and what he did to the UFC. Some words that he said in an interview really clicked when he said them. It was something like "only a handful of people want to see a freak show", and then he went on to talk about how adding regulations and such, really changed peoples perspective on the sport.

That's when I started thinking about how Footbag will never experience this explosion of fame, since there is no aspect about it that a lot of people can connect with. Fighting is primal, everyone can watch a fight and feel emotion. However, footbag does not draw this kind of emotion from the audience. An audience for footbag isn't even as enthusiastic as an audience for golf or tennis, and those sports are extremely mainstream.

[boyle]

I think what we really need to work on now is getting the people who are already playing interested in the sport. It seems there is a lack of interest and involvement from inside the sport, let alone getting new people involved. UFC and all martial arts based sports are a different beast, like you said, people (some people) thrive on violence.

Personally I find most martial arts style sports quite boring, though I am a big fan of most rugby style codes and their included violence...footbag is not violent though, I don't think adding violence would bring a new market

[CRKDMike]

I think what we really need to work on now is getting the people who are already playing interested in the sport. It seems there is a lack of interest and involvement from inside the sport, let alone getting new people involved. UFC and all martial arts based sports are a different beast, like you said, people (some people) thrive on violence.

Personally I find most martial arts style sports quite boring, though I am a big fan of most rugby style codes and their included violence...footbag is not violent though, I don't think adding violence would bring a new market

Ummmmm you may be on to something here LOL

I've got it! Freestyle footbag, loser dies a horrible death!!! We'll be rich!!

[DubleDex]

This discussion makes me wonder how sports like figure skating became accepted as mainstream. Like footbag, the complexity of figure skating (at high levels) is pretty much impossible for the casual viewer to discern (what's the difference between triple sow cow and a triple lutz? For that matter, what's the difference between a double sow cow and a triple sow cow? Are those even the right terms?). And then ask a casual viewer to explain how and why the judges awarded one performance half a point higher than another (especially if nobody stumbled or fell), and likely they wouldn't really know.

What figure skating has going for it is a certain beauty and aesthetics when watching. It's graceful, it's fast - and the casual viewer CAN discern that "Holy crap, he just flung that girl up in the air and she spun around like a thousand times," ... which is pretty awesome. But overall, it's a complex sport with zero violence, minimal crowd understanding, confusing rules, and it requires a lot of skill to get good at. A lot of parallels to footbag.

I think currently footbag is lacking in the beauty and aesthetics department. From a performance standpoint, that's what open freestyle is all about, but only a few of the current top players are really able to make it look graceful. And even then, there's a pretty high frequency of top players performing without shirts and being visibly sweaty (God knows that a 2-minute figure skating routine has to be brutally difficult, but I couldn't image actually seeing skaters dripping in sweat). From a venue standpoint, most events are in gyms or schools or auditoriums that don't exactly scream grandeur and importance.

Of course, it's a double-edged sword. If there's no money to be made, then there's no way to invest in a beautiful venue and promote the sport and draw a huge crowd. And if there's no huge crowd, then there certainly isn't new money coming in. And if there isn't any money and glamor and fame, then how could we expect to draw talented people to the sport to push the boundaries of making it visually appealing?

There are obviously a lot of hurdles, but everything started somewhere. Soccer wasn't the biggest sport in the world the first time somebody decided to kick a ball. Football didn't take the US by storm the first time 11 guys lined up against 11 other guys. Nor would I expect footbaggers to start investing in shiny, skin tight outfits to wear during routines (please, God, no). But to simply say that it's too complex for people to grasp and that it's destined to be alternative, I think is inaccurate. There are plenty of people out there promoting the sport - and they're doing it because they love the sport and want other people to know about it, not because they want to make it mainstream. And that's the kind of thing that starts the swell.

I would wager that most players, even at the highest level of the sport, aren't really focused on making it mainstream. But they are focused on spreading the word and getting people involved. As a sport and as a community, footbag has a lot to offer. The people who are "in" know it, and it would be awesome if more people who were "out" found out.

[Anz]

Darren has good points there.

It is not true that someone who hasn't seen footbag ever before couldn't enjoy watching it. It doesn't need understanding the complexity of the moves (or the complexity of the rules) to appreciate a two minute choreographed routine. It is all about the performance and the vibe of the moment.

Those who were in the audience in Worlds finals in Berlin in 2009 can say that good routines can entertain a big non-footbag audience.

Also I find it funny when show wrestling and footbag are compared. It's like comparing golf and formula 1.

I don't think footbag will ever be so mainstream that it would be on TV all the time like ice hockey. But footbag has the potential to get as big as, for example, skateboarding.

[AtotheK]

One of the things I like best about this sport is rapid-fire dense shred, but I also believe it is hurting the popularity as a spectator sport. Most of us enjoy watching dense strings with difficult links, but for an audience I think this is overwhelming. I watch quite a bit of shred footage and I still find myself in a daze at times while watching a great run. This is compounded for an inexperienced spectator by their lack of knowledge of the components. I think it is very easy to catch someone's eye with our typical circle shredding, but difficult to maintain their attention.

Anz mentioned the comparison to figure skating (which is a comparison I have often made when thinking about footbag), but one of the things I have observed is figure skaters throw a few well-timed big jumps in with many slower movements like spins and even just skating (albeit often with complicated footwork and very gracefully). Their sport is amenable to these things because you need to build up speed for double and triple jumps, and you also need a lot of space. As a result you have to add in time to increase the speed and reposition. You will simply never see a figure skater doing something like 10 consecutive double axles. What this does for the audience is allow them to follow the simpler maneuvers and get excited when the performer builds to a dramatic moment in the routine.

Footbag, I believe, should use the same tactic when performing for the public. I think most would agree that routines are our best showpiece for a general public audience, and as such they should be choreographed in a way that is pleasing to them. I think footbaggers should take a lesson from figure skaters when building a routine where the performance is based around a few big moments (a good sick 3 would be great). The portions in-between could then focus on things like variety, gracefulness, and connecting to the song or audience. Variety is an area where footbag has a clear advantage over almost any other sport I have seen, there are literally thousands of possible individual moves, the possibilities should be impressed upon the crowd. The point being the performance should slow it down for the layman then bring them to excitement so that they stay engaged. The other events like circle can then showcase the dense shred many players like to see. Developing more players with both the required technical skill and performing experience to pull off well polished and engaging routines will help with growing the popularity of the sport.

[DubleDex]

As far as I know, that's what open routines are really supposed to be about. That's why they're judged on technical AND artistic merit. If it was all about technical shred, then nobody would bother juggling two footbags, or taking pauses to interact with the audience, or even bother trying to synchronize their routine to music. Use of the available floor space is also considered.

So, the foundation is set. And like I said previously, some of the most recent routines I've seen (I'll mention Honza and Milan in particular - but I know there are many other high-level players who are also escalating their routines) really seem to have stepped up in terms of artistic value. Their routines feel tied to the music, they ebb and flow (with plenty of difficulty, but also with a rhythm and style). The incorporate bursts of hard tricks and sections of smooth links. And they're doing it within the judging system so these routines are not only visibly pleasing to footbag educated and non-educated crowds, they can also win tournaments.

I know people have lamented the lack of activity on modified, but I don't think that equates to a lack of interest in the sport. When videos show up these days, I tend to see a lot more invested in them - from both a video production standpoint and quality of shred standpoint. More players than just the highest level competitors are thinking about what looks good and nice links and how to put together pleasing runs. It's pretty amazing to watch. And I'm sure the number of people who think that same thing is also growing.

[CRKDMike]

Wow, many things I said have already been taken out of context. However, I will avoid arguing for the sake of the topic (gotta love forums).

Footbag does not have the potential to get as big as skateboarding, because both sports have been around for the same amount of time, and if you mention the word "footbag" to any random person, they will look at you like you have two heads. However, everyone knows what skateboading is. Also, skateboarding incorporates more style and expression, footbag is more of a, sweaty dude with minimal cloathing type deal. Ain't nobody got time for that.

One person says that routines should incorporate more flow and less dense links, another person says that footbaggers are already doing this. My point exactly. People have tried everything to make it more appealing, but no dice.

Of course, the amount of activity on modified.in is not directly related to the popularity of the sport. Forums come and go, and footbag has remained. However, it is a data point, and less activity definitely doesn't mean MORE interest in the sport LOL. If more people were becoming interested in footbag, all footbag forums would be stimulated, and fresh because all sorts of new fans would be searching and researching.

Lastly, higher video production is not due to increased interest in the sport. It is due to improved technology, and increased interest in video production on an indie level.

I'm just trying to be real about what footbag is, and will be. The only differences between juggling and freestyle footbag, are the limbs (and appendages) that are used, the amount of sweat that is likely to be produced, and the amount of things that are being tossed around. Oh, also, footbag is slightly more stylish than juggling. Either way, not too many people care about either sport.

[fatbagger]

I have to disagree, we haven't tried everything for routines. With routines being the event that is supposed to showcase the sport to the general public the scoring needs to be adjusted to cater to the publics eyes. What I want to see is routines with required elements that you have to submit to the judges beforehand. Like requiring a sick 1, big 3 and a 15 move density section. Submit those sections to the judges and have those elements of the routine be the ONLY part that is judged on technical merit. The routine as a whole should only be judged artistically, then factor in the technical scores from the required elements. This would make routines much more interesting to watch imo. You know a big 3 or sick 1 is coming and and could actually get excited wondering what so and so is going use as their sick 1 or if he/she is going to use the same density section in finals. We could easily be more exciting and successful as a sport than say figure skating if we find the type of routines that really cater to the non players limited attention span.

[Fade2black]

I think one of the major things hindering the gap between being interested in the sport and interested in learning the sport is that the "eye" of someone who sees high level footbag for the first time cannot keep up with the amount of stuff being done. I watched the Mulroney Dropless vid about 50 times before I could start relating his routine to tricks I knew or had researched. If we dont have a lexicon that allows people to grasp the nomenclature as they watch then it will continue to "wow" people without enticing them enough to learn. I have watched olympic gymnastics floor exercise over the years and I still couldnt tell you what any of the tumbles, vault jumps, uneven bars tricks are.

The closest thing I have seen so far is Anssi's Youtube, which goes through principles and basics. I guess my point is that if a person sees a Worlds final Routine run, how on earth are they supposed to reference the tricks in that run against ?

[CRKDMike]

I think one of the major things hindering the gap between being interested in the sport and interested in learning the sport is that the "eye" of someone who sees high level footbag for the first time cannot keep up with the amount of stuff being done. I watched the Mulroney Dropless vid about 50 times before I could start relating his routine to tricks I knew or had researched. If we dont have a lexicon that allows people to grasp the nomenclature as they watch then it will continue to "wow" people without enticing them enough to learn. I have watched olympic gymnastics floor exercise over the years and I still couldnt tell you what any of the tumbles, vault jumps, uneven bars tricks are.

The closest thing I have seen so far is Anssi's Youtube, which goes through principles and basics. I guess my point is that if a person sees a Worlds final Routine run, how on earth are they supposed to reference the tricks in that run against ?

See, you're picking up what I'm putting down.

Well said.

I should be clear that I am not bashing this sport that we are all obsessed with, I am only opening the conversation about it's popularity, and it's inability for mass appeal.

[boyle]

I have to disagree, we haven't tried everything for routines. With routines being the event that is supposed to showcase the sport to the general public the scoring needs to be adjusted to cater to the publics eyes. What I want to see is routines with required elements that you have to submit to the judges beforehand. Like requiring a sick 1, big 3 and a 15 move density section. Submit those sections to the judges and have those elements of the routine be the ONLY part that is judged on technical merit. The routine as a whole should only be judged artistically, then factor in the technical scores from the required elements. This would make routines much more interesting to watch imo. You know a big 3 or sick 1 is coming and and could actually get excited wondering what so and so is going use as their sick 1 or if he/she is going to use the same density section in finals. We could easily be more exciting and successful as a sport than say figure skating if we find the type of routines that really cater to the non players limited attention span.

I think there are some quite interesting ideas in this - it kind of links with the "power plays" offered in some sports. I think this would have great potential in some more exhibition style tournaments - I think for events like Worlds, etc, the current rules and style can continue - but I see a great opportunity in enhancing these areas through tournament which are more spectator based.

I think it's not a concern, particularly for a non-footbag player to know every trick (or any tricks) in a routine. Just like in a gymnastics floor routine, it's about the overall presentation, skill, style, timing with the music, etc, etc.

Anssi is right too. The finals in Berlin had an audience of thousands captivated. Big stage, good routines, also an online live audience, as well as live entertainment to keep these people entertained.

[CRKDMike]

Maybe you're on to something. I am speaking from strictly my point of view in Canada. So maybe footbag does have an audience, but I sure havn't met anyone here who thinks twice about it. Maybe it's the apparel, maybe it's the lack of style, maybe it's just that people can't respect some dude catching and tossing a bag with his feet, as much as they respect other sports that require a certain amount of toughness, and courage, and heart.

Anz also compared footbag to skateboarding, which is just as silly as comparing footbag to MMA. Apples and oranges, because of the danger involved in skateboarding, and the amount of balls those guys have. It evokes emotion in the audience to see atheletes risk life and limb in order to achieve a goal.

Almost 2000 spectators in Berlin is no sign of this sport gaining any traction with the general population. Europe is quite different, especially Berlin. Wait, isn't prostitution legal there? Yuuup, it is.

[Nathan]

I think this whole conversation is kind of getting away from what is really important..

Footbag might not be a great spectator sport, but I don't think it needs to be. A lot of similar sports don't draw big crowds. Skateboarding might be an exception that has a lot of mass appeal, but there are plenty of sports that have larger player bases than footbag -- and therefore bigger tournaments, more sponsors etc -- even though they don't draw big crowds of spectators. Off-hand, here are some examples: Longboarding, mountain biking, kayaking, bouldering, wakeboarding, ultimate frisbee...

Yeah, footbag isn't all that similar to any of these. But none of these sports have huge events with crowds of people who are fans. Pretty much everyone who is a fan of small sports like these is also a participant. Think about all the kids at skate demos who can barely kickflip but know the names of 100s of tricks. That's the kind of spectator who matters -- who cares about the results, knows the names of players, and most importantly, buys merch. Which means the real secret to getting more good exposure is expanding the player base. Random spectators who just think footbag is cool won't buy footbags, wouldn't buy footbag-specific shoes (if there ever is another model), won't buy shirts, planetfootbag shorts, anything.

And getting more players is a reasonable goal. The Penn State club has gone from 2 players to 12 in two years. it takes some time and dedication but it's pretty simple. You have to be willing to play in a public place, play in a group, talk and have fun, and be willing to stop and teach people. It helps to follow up with people on facebook and phone, and make the club a welcoming and fun place. If you don't have a club that hangs out together outside of sessions, then yeah, recruiting is going to be harder. People want to play sports and pick up hobbies that mesh with the rest of their lives.

That said, I think there is one important thing that would go a long way in making footbag competition more spectator friendly, and that is real-time judging. I can't think of many other sports that don't have scores available to the public. Like in circle contest, scores for each round should go up on a screen before the next one starts..

TL;DR: We need more players, not spectators.

[CRKDMike]

All I'm saying is, lets just be happy with what we have, and lay off the "promoting" part of it. People don't like being force-fed their interests. Unique people will play this unique sport/hobby because they love it, and it will never be a source of income for the players. That's all I'm really trying to say here.

Even with the almost 2000 person crowd in Berlin, did anyone (performer) make money? Probably not, once you consider how much it costs to get to freakin Berlin and back hahaha, nevermind food and board while you're there, and who wouldn't buy drinks when they're hammin' it up in Berlin playing footbag!

It costs a lot to get to these events that draw a significant amount of people.

Oh, also, all players start out as spectators, so your argument there doesn't really work, unless you are suggesting that new players will form without them first seeing and becoming interested in the sport as a spectator.....not likely....