Footbag = alternative sport

[F[uns]tylin' Eclectic]

Mothafunnin Nate bringin tears to my eyes n' shit.

Great words Nathan. I totally agree with Anz.. If we have one thing that footbag could eventually gain the popularity of, it's skateboarding. People see skateboarding and either think, "Hey, that's awesome, I bet I could learn some of that stuff if I practiced it, and I know some of my friends skate so maybe I'll try" or "I don't have the guts to try that because I'm a big stinky pussy". It's the same thing with footbag, I feel. It's just, only difference between the two is that "Skateboarding" is more notable to the general public that "Freestyle Footbag"

Silly/Sarcastic Suggestions:

1) Change our sport name to "Skatebag"/"Gnarbag"/"Sickbag"/"Dopebag" (though I feel dopebag might attract some drug addicts off the street)
2) Start making footbags that produce a deafening sound and are hooked up with blinding lights so that no one can possibly think we are "just doing an irish dance" any longer
3) Always footbag with bags that are on fire, so we have the danger element that skateboarding has. We could call it "Skatebag Firestyle". 12 year olds would be all over that.
4) We need talking action figures of all of the BAP players sold in every Toys'R'Us. You press David's button and hear "Dammit, I suck".. Anssi's would say "The".. Jon Schneider's button would make him talk about quantum physics theories..


Realtalk Suggestions:

1) Was talking to Pete Bowler about this.. We need to ask some cool celebrities, like Steven Colbert and some others, to mention our sport (maybe with World Championships coming up) so we get some media in on it.
2) I thought it would be sweet to make a really funny movie (if anyone wants to do this, please be my guest) that would be kind of like Best In Show, the movie about a bunch of people trying to win a dogshow, if you've seen it, you know what I mean. And it goes into their lives and shows how ridiculous each character lives and whatnot but our's would be about players working really hard to get BAP and seeing into their ridiculous lives... yadda yadda awful idea, but might still be fun if someone wants to use that, go ahead.
3) Starting smaller, hosting demos around skateparks isn't such a terrible idea, since I think those who reach a plateau in skateboarding (myself and I know of several others) you move on to footbag. And you know there are crappy skaters at your local skateparks that are just waiting to find footbag.

It can happen. I am a firm believer that there is something we can do to get footbag as popular as skateboarding or near as popular.

Oh and sorry to disagree with you Mike, but NEVER STOP PROMOTING

[Nathan]

All I'm saying is, lets just be happy with what we have...

Word to that. But I still disagree in terms of promoting.

We all might talk about promoting the sport a lot, but not many of us do it much.

2003 Funtastiks (my first tournament) was bigger than any East Coast event this year. I'm pretty sure prize money at tournaments everywhere, including Worlds, is drying up. I don't think those are a result of the actual sport not being cool enough to attract new players. It's a result of footbag players practicing alone in their basements and not encouraging new players enough.

Being happy with what we have, and the friends we've made playing hack, is one thing. Being happy with the fact that the sport has quite literally gotten smaller is another. I'm still not a great promoter, but at the very least I'm going to keep teaching everyone I can toe stalls and doing demos whenever I can.

I don't care if we end up on TV or not, but if we can get back to the point where the world champion can at least win enough to pay for the flight back home, that would be cool.

[CRKDMike]

I just stopped promoting footbag right this instant, and you can't do anything about it!! Haha

But seriously, Nick, the moment you start telling people that something is cool, that thing becomes UN-COOL. Believe it. If we just go about our ways, not ACTIVELY promoting the sport, I think it would be better for everyone.

Also, I do think that recreational skateboarding could be a gateway for people to start playing footbag, but only because it starts with you and a group of your buddies hanging out in your free time, trying to do tricks and one-up eachother, or at least progree together. I also did this when I was younger, and I eventually learned that I am terrible at skateboarding. However, I still like hanging out with my friends, so we (the people who sucked at skateboarding) would kick a hack around while the other guys would skate. We could all hang out and have fun this way, and everyone had something they could do.

Footbag and skateboarding are alike because there are no teams, it is an individual sport that involves creativity and style. You might be on to something with your idea of hanging around skate parks, but I would say to do it in a passive way, not actively trying to get people to join in or whatever.

In the end, it's all for nothing though really, because as I said numerous times before, footbag will never be able to support it's players financially, and why promote something for any other reason than to generate income?? You may as well promote the fight against poverty or killing whales for that matter, all of which are useless (including footbag).

Am I not laying it out nice enough for you guys to see this??!?

Hahaaha, the ironic thing here, is that I am theoretically promoting footbag myself by bumping this thread constantly, and stirring some activity on this forum. Please, don't thank me

Nathan man, I don't know you at all, but I'm telling you, the World Champion of Footbag will never be able to come out in the black after a championship....sad, but that is what I truly believe.

[Nathan]

Promote because it's more fun to play in a club with a dozen members than three. Promote because it's more fun to go to a tourney with 50 players than 15.

If you don't want to do anything to promote the sport, that's fine. I've had long periods of my footbag "career" where I played solo exclusively and only concentrated on my own game. But if everyone does this all the time, the sport will die.

I just don't think you're right. Haha sorry.

The East Coast scene, especially Pennsylvania, is making a comeback. That's mostly because of Nick Polini, who's my old roommate and one of the most uncool guys I know... Kidding. But he flips out in excitement every time we teach someone a toe stall, and asks for people's phone numbers in awkward ways if they show interest, so we can invite them to the next session. And it WORKS. He's bar none the most effective "promoter" I've seen in the sport, and it's because he's passionate. So sorry if I don't believe you when you say that promoting doesn't work.

[ThisIsFate]

You don't see these kinds of comments in other sports, do you?
It's sad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSqyMbSzrtQ

[Anz]

You CAN be happy with what you have, but if you have the guts you strive for more. Like in pretty much everything in life.

When it comes to promoting, I agree with the few previous posts. (Also how to heck does saying something is cool suddenly make in uncool? Doesn't make sense.)
Just yesterday I was playing in the park. A family walked by and stopped to watch me shred. The (teenage) boy gave me 2€ and asked if he could film. I hit a 40ish contact demo run for him that he filmed - and I handed him a flyer and a free Footbag Finland promo bag (I always have them with me for these occasions). They were happy. Promoting is always good, and I'd let myself be filmed and I'd hand out free promo bags without people giving me money.
Promotion doesn't have to be doing shows at conventions. It can be just answering questions on the street when someone sees you play and wants to know more about footbag.

I want to make a few points absolutely clear here, for those who might be having second thoughts about anything after reading this thread:
- I don't know anyone who would regret going to Worlds. It's definetly worth paying the flights and hotel to get to watch the best players, play with others, meet new people, party, play footbag, hang out. Some people go to Worlds but don't play footbag at all during the whole time - they just enjoy hanging out and watching other people play.
- Competing at Footbag World Championships is competing for the title of who's the best. It's not about money. Worlds has never had prize money.
- People have hobbies that cost money. And footbag is cheap compared to many other hobbies and sports.
- You should not try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

[F[uns]tylin' Eclectic]

Nathan, thank you so much for the kind words, bud. That really means a lot to me.

On a serious note this time...

Whether we like it or not, we come off kinda cocky/elitist to passersby. A person who sees footbag that can maybe do a toe stall... they walk by and see us shredding, chances are they're probably going to be scared to join us because they quote unquote suck. But if I see that guy watching us for a minute or 2, I invite them in and offer to teach them toe stalls. I think sometimes they are surprised that we are actually friendly people, which makes sense because we look slightly conceited when we are shredding face. When you let them know that we all start from the same tricks, like kicks and toe stalls, it kinda knocks you down a few levels and they feel like that can actually relate to you. I sometimes say, "yeah I had trouble with toe stalls at first too, but once you do a few of them, your muscles start to understand and they get easier and that happens with all the tricks you might learn." I find this to be one of the best methods of recruitment.

But yeah, I agree with what everyone is saying about promotion, we need it. Without it, our sport would slowly fade out.

[CRKDMike]

Well boys, for the sake of not beating a dead horse, can we at least agree to disagree?

Anz, I have studied marketing a bit in, and "cool" is elusive. As soon as many people feel that something is cool, it quickly becomes un-cool. But we are getting waay off topic here.

I don't play in a club, it's kind of a weird concept for me, but I know that's just an issue that I fight with.

Also, I don't go to tournaments. I can't justify spending the money personally, plus I would rather spend my money going somewhere beautiful for a vacation, and then shred by myself on vacation. However, I've never been very competitive.

Anz, you are basically admitting to being a footbag prostitute. $2!!! That is both sad, and kind of embarassing at the same time hahaha. The last thing I am striving to be at this point in my life is a street performer.

I agree about your other point (Worlds has never had prize money), and you are supporting my argument by saying that, so thank you for that. My other main point is that it will always be this way. I'm glad you finally agree

Like I said, lets just agree to disagree, and Anz, please use protection when you are meeting all these people and giving away your hard-earned money, and valuable time. You will never catch me doing such a thing.

[CRKDMike]

You don't see these kinds of comments in other sports, do you?
It's sad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSqyMbSzrtQ

Exactly my point! This sport is not, and will never be like any other sport. Especially when it comes to popularity, and income generation.

[Anz]

The only reason I'm posting in this thread is so that other people who read this don't get any wrong ideas. It'd be a shame if there were any new players reading this forum and thinking that this thread made any sense.

Mike - You registered on this forum less than a month ago, so I forgive you your disrespectful words. Had you spoken to me like that face to face, shit would have hit the fan. I study engineering, so a 2€ is more or less dust on my Lavers, but I'm not saying no if someone wants to give me money as a gesture of appreciation.
You play footbag by yourself and you don't go to tournament, so you haven't even experienced the real essence of footbag community. You don't even really know what you're horsehockeying about.

I'm not going to get repetitive, so I probably won't post here anymore. I just want to stress that everyone should experience footbag tournaments themselves without any prejudice.

[boyle]

The situations that Anz and Nick both mentions are the exact sort of promotions that we should all be doing. Playing in a park (outside, public space where people can come by) with some equipment to promote the sport and some information about what to do next (come to the weekly session at 1pm on Sunday at this particular place, bring this footbag I just gave you).

Footbag has very low entry costs, and even when it gets to the top level, it is still not an expensive hobby. The footbag community, particularly at events like Worlds, which brings together a real cultural mix is something with huge amounts of variety - different backgrounds, languages, style etc and these interactions as well as testing yourself against the best in the world.

Mike said: "Like I said, lets just agree to disagree, and Anz, please use protection when you are meeting all these people and giving away your hard-earned money, and valuable time. You will never catch me doing such a thing."

In this case, you are never going to do anything useful in your life. If you want to make any difference in the world, I'm not just talking about in footbag, you are either going to have to put in your own time or your own money. For those of us who are passionate about footbag, it is no problem for us to spend our own money, our own time in helping to continue the sport going, wherever it is happening. The atmosphere at the tournaments are what makes the footbag community so great.

Nick's jokes of changing the name to skate related terminology, though those ideas are a bit much - simple acts such as going and playing by popular skateparks (there are usually areas next to the parks to sit around and watch the skating) can give a new audience.

On skateboarding, it is an interesting comparison, as skateboarding - particularly vert (halfpipe) skating has had some serious downturns over the years, but then has built itself up over the years. While now it's a huge industry, it all started out from skaters building up their own teams, ramps, competitions, etc. Like Nathan said, the thing to build is more players.

[CRKDMike]

Anz, lets not get too worked up. Respect is earned, so you can't just expect me to kiss anyones rear end around here. I'm just as free as you are to speak my mind regardless of how recently I joined this forum.

You're taking this thread personally, instead of posting objectively.

So anyway, I believe that changing the name won't make a difference because everyone still says "what?? Footbag?? Oh you mean Hacky Sack right?"

So whatever we call it, the general public will still mock it.

[CRKDMike]

Hey Daniel, I hear you have some nice mountains over there.

Ya I'm not trying to change the world. I have accomplished some things in my life that did require sacrifices, but in the end it wasn't worth it. Maybe I'm jaded, or maybe I'm gonna save you some time and money.

Either way, take everything I say with a grain of salt please, or you guys may give yourselves aneurisms

[h0ag3yb3atZ]

more importantly why lavers?!?

[Jeremy]

When I was a student I made about $10,000 through footbag performing (over 4 years), a large part of that was street performing. That was a meaningful component to my income during that time. I made a few thousand prior to being a student too. The vast majority of paid performances came about through people seeing me busking on the street too. It's not much money to me now, but it was a lot back then, not to mention the opportunities of being paid to go to events and festivals, even travelling interstate, and showing many people footbag.

I agree with Dan about playing in public spots - that's the best. I don't know if much needs to change. At this stage I think if you try to build a robust footbag scene in your locality, that's the easiest and best thing. The reality is that lots of us got into playing footbag because we saw amazing technical players, and even though we had no clue what they were doing, or how hard the different things were, we decided to try and learn. I think exposure is the lowest hanging branch for building the sport. The vast majority of people have never seen or heard of footbag, and a small but meaningful percentage of those would start playing if they were exposed to the sport.

The first time I saw freestyle footbag was a grainy .org video of Ryan Mulroney's 2001 winning routine, and I was as amazed that he was stalling everything, as I was with the tricks. I couldn't even follow the bag all the time, especially considering the video resolution. Nonetheless, it was enough to motivate me to still be playing 12 years later.

[Jeremy]

Something else. Keep your .org membership and club profiles up to date. People do look at those. Also check for new members in your area regularly. It's a bit of a pain, but it's an easy way of finding interested people. The first person I played with (Lotus), I contacted through .org, and it was a big help to find somebody in my state. Other people have contacted me through .org, and that's included companies looking to book performances. If you haven't logged in recently, or your details aren't up-to-date then people will pass you over.

[CRKDMike]

That's really great Jeremy. I made my money teaching part time when I was in college. Anyways, that is another great point that you made, it would take YEARS to make any kind of significant amount of money via footbag, and the money you did make was not because you promoted the sport and the sport got big, but because you were sweating your butt of shredding. That's my point here people, and Jeremy has said it best. Less talk, more shred. Stop force-feeding people the sport, and let them explore on their own. Sure you can guide their curiosity, but get real if you think that actively promoting footbag will ever lead to footbag being an option as a career. If it does end up being your career, hopefully money isn't important to you....

On a completely unrelated note, I just hit my first two swirls ever! They were fun but I couldn't do anymore, even after trying for 15 more minutes over and over and over....

I got a taste of swirls, finally!

[F[uns]tylin' Eclectic]

Stop force-feeding people the sport, and let them explore on their own

No.



When I promote, I don't force-feed, I offer to teach. Force-feeding is if I made them try or stay in the circle. Big difference.

[DubleDex]

It's interesting that this thread has heated up. I don't think most people would disagree with the point (fact) that footbag is an alternative sport. What I disagree with is the IDEA that it could never be mainstream. It has components that make it engaging and entertaining and fun to watch from a recreational and technical standpoint.

That being said, what am I defining as mainstream? Would it ever rival football, soccer, or baseball? No. It simply isn't that sort of spectator sport. But (perhaps beating a dead horse), go back to figure skating. I would say that figure skating is mainstream in that LOTS of people are interested in it during the Olympics, and ENOUGH people are interested in it the rest of the year for the top level athletes to make a living. Footbag fits into that category of sports, where it could generate a fair amount of interest amongst a core group of people. It's already doing that.

Heck, if you move out of the realm of freestlye and get into footbag net - that's a sport that could easily gain greater attention (except that anymore it seems to be considered "fringe" even within the sport itself). I could easily see footbag net or takraw becoming Olympic sports (I mean, if badminton can make it...)

As for the OP, I think the what people are really getting fired up about is that you seem to be making it your goal to keep footbag alternative. It's this sort of defeatest attitude about it that really riles up the people who are passionate about it. Like I've said before, I don't think anyone currently promoting the sport is focused on "taking it mainstream" but rather building the community because it's a community worth building.

Nobody expects footbag to be on TV regularly with world-famous superstars in the next 6 months, 6 years, or probably even the next couple decades. But it certainly can grow. Anytime there's a sport or hobby or activity or interest that a bunch of people feel strongly about, there's an opportunity for that passion to become infectious and spread.

And the impetus for an explosion is probably something no one would ever expect. For instance, some Hollywood name suddenly gets spotted shredding. It makes People Magazine or Entertainment Tonight. All of the sudden it is "cool" to kick hacky sack (without anyone ever actually saying it's "cool"). And that's the moment all the grass roots promotion pays off — because those people have already been planting seeds and they're already equipped to continue the movement. Again, that's unpredictable and, potentially, will never happen.

But I for one am happy that there is a small army of people out there making videos, spreading the word and making sure that footbag remains a STRONG alternative sport until that moment when it isn't any more.

[boyle]

It's interesting that this thread has heated up. I don't think most people would disagree with the point (fact) that footbag is an alternative sport. What I disagree with is the IDEA that it could never be mainstream. It has components that make it engaging and entertaining and fun to watch from a recreational and technical standpoint.

That being said, what am I defining as mainstream? Would it ever rival football, soccer, or baseball? No. It simply isn't that sort of spectator sport. But (perhaps beating a dead horse), go back to figure skating. I would say that figure skating is mainstream in that LOTS of people are interested in it during the Olympics, and ENOUGH people are interested in it the rest of the year for the top level athletes to make a living. Footbag fits into that category of sports, where it could generate a fair amount of interest amongst a core group of people. It's already doing that.

...
But I for one am happy that there is a small army of people out there making videos, spreading the word and making sure that footbag remains a STRONG alternative sport until that moment when it isn't any more.

I agree with this, especially on the potential. Most of the hugely popular spectator sports are team sports, rather than individual sports and in reality the individual sports (eg Athletics, Gymnastics) get their big boosts around Olympics time. It's not so important to be mainstream or even a "leading alternative sport" - such as skateboarding, or even roller derby, which has taken off in a huge, worldwide way in recent years.

The first step is to do the "little things" right - play in public, keep your .org profile updated, make videos, share videos of others, stitch footbags, buy footbags, tell people the sport exists, go to competitions, hold competitions, etc, etc. The fact is we do already have a strong world network, which is one of the best parts of the footbag community.