War on Iraq

Rob · Post by **Rob** » 30 Jan 2003 17:48

Allan has got to be one of the smartest...or wisest people I've met yet...I'm cruising that site right now...very interesting indeed

thanks for the addy..got any more?

Hacky_Slacker · Post by **Hacky_Slacker** » 30 Jan 2003 18:07

Allen has a point, or several for that matter. I agree with LOCO, on everything he said. Way to go Dizz. preach on.

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 30 Jan 2003 18:40

Loco Robo wrote:Allan has got to be one of the smartest...or wisest people I've met yet...I'm cruising that site right now...very interesting indeed thanks for the addy..got any more?

Flattery will get you everywhere

I'm not really smart. But I am smart enough to READ the fine print. It's not hard to find this stuff. You just care enough about the planet and *everybody* on it to look beyond what is being spoon fed to you by people that don't care about anything but the all mighty dollar.

http://indymedia.org:8081/
http://truthout.org/
http://boston.indymedia.org/local/webca ... 32kbps.mp3
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/19 ... tml#seca11

There's TONS more out there. I don't have the time to dig out all my links right now... I'll post more later.

I cannot more highly recommend watching that S-11 Redux video. it appears to be hosted on the Sundance Film festival site, but it is one of the more poignant statments I've ever seen using the corporate media's own rhetoric to say what they really mean.

More later.

Peace out

PS I really don't mean to sound preachy, but this issue obviously taps into some very deeply held politcal beliefs and I feel very strongly that more people need to see and hear some of the things that I've seen and heard.

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 30 Jan 2003 20:00

I think the bottom line is, and this does not refer to the non-americans on the list, that we as Americans(but not me personally) voted Bush into office. We have elections to pick the candidates we wish to represent us. We picked Bush. Now that he is in office, he can pretty much propose any resulutions that he wishes; he doesnt need to heed our concerns anymore. And we as the citizens who voted him into office, are to blame for his actions. Blame me

.

Furthermore, whether Saddam is allied with Bin Laden and/or international terrorism is pretty irrelevant. He still poses a threat to the US, and all other countries not supporting his beliefs- he has biological weapons! And as soon as Saddam broke the UN resolutions by disallowing UN instectors to enter the country the first time around, when Bush senior was prez., he was breaking United Nations policy. But we were too stupid to realize his threat. He should be held accountable for his actions, and he will be.

And whats with all of this US bashing? Someone has to stand up for the rights of the innocent. And for all of the stupid causes that you foreigners believe the US gets into, I tell you that we do it only because all of you smaller countries are not brave enough to risk the lives of your citizens to defend international freedom. If saddam dropped a couple bombs on Canada or gave you a healthy dose of some anthrax just to piss off the US, what would you do then Allan? Its definitely possible. Irag has plenty of biological weapons you know you know. . . cause the US stupidly gave it to them during the Iran/Iraq war!
So . . .what WOULD you do? Would you fight, would you petition the US and the UN to help you? Or would you still maintain a peaceful stance? The only reason you criticize the US for its determined actions in trying to curb terrrorism is because 9/11 didnt happen to Canada. If it did, your country would either retaliate in such a way as to minimize the likelihood of similar events occurring in the future (such as the US did) or it would do nothing as its innocent citizens were slaughtered!

Saddam is an asshole. Saddam could kill half of Canada with boilogical weapons. What if he did?

jeremy

FootbagginBum · Post by **FootbagginBum** » 30 Jan 2003 20:28

well, we didn't really vote him in, florida is just stupid...more total votes for gore.

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 30 Jan 2003 21:53

Jeremy I have to say that you truly scare me.

I don't really wish to offend you I have a feeling this will. I apologise in adavnce, but I have to respond.

It is people like you that give Americans a bad name.

Senor Grommet wrote:I think the bottom line is, and this does not refer to the non-americans on the list, that we as Americans(but not me personally) voted Bush into office.

Okay, while my first reaction is laughter, this statement in and of itself makes a cold chill run up my spine. Do you really believe that? Even CNN reported that Bush LOST the popular vote by quite a margin. Whatever you may wish to call your electoral system, it is NOT democratic.

Senor Grommet wrote: We have elections to pick the candidates we wish to represent us. We picked Bush. Now that he is in office, he can pretty much propose any resulutions that he wishes; he doesnt need to heed our concerns anymore. And we as the citizens who voted him into office, are to blame for his actions. Blame me .

If you voted for him, I'd certainly give you your share of the blame, but I would imagine that you, like most of your fellow American citizens didn't even vote.

Senor Grommet wrote:Furthermore, whether Saddam is allied with Bin Laden and/or international terrorism is pretty irrelevant.

So the whole basis of needing to go to war with him to fight terrorism is pretty much moot then, isn't it?

Senor Grommet wrote: He still poses a threat to the US, and all other countries not supporting his beliefs- he has biological weapons!

As you so aptly pointed out, your government gave them to him. If you think it was an accident, well, there is nothing that I can say to dissuade your beliefs as you are apparently so indoctrinated into the system of propaghanda that you'd believe Bush coming on television and telling you that Canada poses a serious threat to the US. Would you care if I was at the end of your barrel? Or is it just Muslim people you see as a threat.

Senor Grommet wrote: And as soon as Saddam broke the UN resolutions by disallowing UN instectors to enter the country the first time around, when Bush senior was prez., he was breaking United Nations policy.

I'd tell the UN to fuck off too. "United" Nations my ass. Did you know that Disneyland employs more people than the UN? http://unicwash.org

Senor Grommet wrote:But we were too stupid to realize his threat. He should be held accountable for his actions, and he will be.

The only thing that you are too stupid to realize is that your government is lying to you.

Senor Grommet wrote:And whats with all of this US bashing?

Somebodies got to do it

Seriously though, "US foreign policy" are the key words here.

Senor Grommet wrote: Someone has to stand up for the rights of the innocent. And for all of the stupid causes that you foreigners believe the US gets into, I tell you that we do it only because all of you smaller countries are not brave enough to risk the lives of your citizens to defend international freedom.

Wow. At this point I would degrade to name calling and finger pointing, but seriously, I think your words stand alone as all the rebuttle I could type out here.

Senor Grommet wrote: If saddam dropped a couple bombs on Canada or gave you a healthy dose of some anthrax just to piss off the US, what would you do then Allan? Its definitely possible.

You know why it's possible? Because the Canadian government supports the US. Gee, thanx.

Senor Grommet wrote: Irag has plenty of biological weapons you know you know. . . cause the US stupidly gave it to them during the Iran/Iraq war!

Yup, that sure was STUPID!!! THANX for supporting the people that did it.

Senor Grommet wrote:So . . .what WOULD you do? Would you fight, would you petition the US and the UN to help you? Or would you still maintain a peaceful stance?[\quote]

I would maintain a peaceful stance. You see, I'm not hopped up on McDonald's and prozac, so I can see the futility of fighting wars - even in the face of such aggression. It's an escalating cycle of violence in which no body wins. If you think I'm stupid for thinking this way, I can only pity you for your blind inability to accept what is right in front of your nose.

Senor Grommet wrote: The only reason you criticize the US for its determined actions in trying to curb terrrorism is because 9/11 didnt happen to Canada.
Really? Thanks for the clarification. You know what? I watched those planes crash into those buildings that morning LIVE on television and I cried like never before. Those were HUMAN lives that were lost. If you think I cared whether they were "Americans" or "Canadians" then you wholly under-estimate my intelligence and I apparently have wholly over-estimated yours. What happened on September the 11th was a tradegy beyond what words can express and I mourn for the victims of that horrible morning as citizens of the planet.

Senor Grommet wrote:If it did, your country would either retaliate in such a way as to minimize the likelihood of similar events occurring in the future (such as the US did) or it would do nothing as its innocent citizens were slaughtered!
Nothing your country has done has made the likelyhood of such an attack happening again ANY less. In fact, you did EXACTLY what Osama Bin Laden *wanted* you to do. US actions in Afghanistan and elsewhere have dramatically *increased* the chances of something like that happening again.

So, who's lives are more valuable Jeremy? Those of the innocent citizens of the USA or those of the innocent citizens of Iraq? Did you know that more than double the number innocent Afghani civillians have died since 9/11 than those that died on 9/11? And what was the result there? No more Taliban? (whom the CIA put into power in the first place, BTW) Gee, that other brutal miltary regime is *much* better. But we don't hear about Afghanistan anymore because it isn't good for ratings.(except of course to hear about the new mulit-billion dollar OIL pipeline they are putting through it.)

Senor Grommet wrote:Saddam is an asshole. Saddam could kill half of Canada with boilogical weapons. What if he did?

First of all, George Bush would kill all of Canada with biological weapons if he thought it would increase his stock portfolio. And I'm beginning to think you would too Jeremy if you thought Jean Chretian was an "asshole".

Sadaam Hussein is an asshole and so is George W. Bush and so is anybody who supports either of them.

"There is peace where the people are peaceful; you will find it nowhere else." - anon

Graffiti on the Ninth Precinct police station, New York: "We the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much for so long with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing."

I went looking for some other quotes and foud this page:
http://quotes.prolix.nu/War/

Juan · Post by **Juan** » 30 Jan 2003 22:10

Man........ I just wrote my best response ever concerning this discussion. But it got erased when I pressed 'Submit'.

Allan is right. I cant stress that enough. Im proud to be a citizen of this land, but its time for a CHANGE. We must PARTICIPATE to achieve a peaceful world. Be Heard.

ToeGuiltless · Post by **ToeGuiltless** » 30 Jan 2003 22:15

I voted for Nader (Green Party). I wonder how that would've turned out...

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 30 Jan 2003 22:17

I write the longer replies out in Notepad and then copy and paste when I'm ready. I too have spent way too long writing something and then have my stupid computer erase it.

Wish we could have heard your opinion

A

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 30 Jan 2003 22:29

Ralph Nader is the man.

http://www.nader.org/

FootbagginBum · Post by **FootbagginBum** » 30 Jan 2003 22:49

dizzy wrote: You see, I'm not hopped up on McDonald's and prozac, so I can see the futility of fighting wars - even in the face of such aggression.

You know what is really sad about America though? I had to figure out who Jean Chretian by context, never heard the name before...thats sad.

ToeGuiltless · Post by **ToeGuiltless** » 30 Jan 2003 23:06

yeah. and people keep telling me about some guy named abraham lincoln...we need more top-hats!!

i think gore's presidency would have been uneventful; much like clintons, minus the scandal part.

bazroberts1984 · Post by **bazroberts1984** » 31 Jan 2003 02:33

I agree with SenorGrommet on this one. Don't get me wrong, war is not fun and I feel for the innocent parties involved but it's just about to escalate into an "it's them or us" situation. If we wait for them to strike first it may be too late!

Each to their own though

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 03:38

bazroberts1984 wrote:I agree with SenorGrommet on this one. Don't get me wrong, war is not fun and I feel for the innocent parties involved but it's just about to escalate into an "it's them or us" situation. If we wait for them to strike first it may be too late!
Each to their own though

There is no "them or us" - It's them AND us. We ALL have to live on this tiny planet. If they drop a bomb in Iraq, don't you think you'd be effected by that in the UK? Nukes don't pay attention to borders brother. Ever heard of RADIATION?

Would you "feel" for yourself? 'cause you'd be one of those "innocent parties".

How do you mean "if we wait for them to strike first"? that is placing an inevitability on the situation and making it hopeless.

DON'T YOU GET IT??? We are no longer dealing with the same type of war. It doesn't matter who strikes first if we're ALL DEAD. Whether it's nukes or chemical or biological weapons, WE'RE ALL DEAD. Get it? DEAD. Them AND US. PLEASE think about what you are saying.

So when your skin starts to melt off or you see that bright flash in the sky, are you really going to think "gee, I'm glad we struck first!" ??

Do you believe in war? Post to this thread. Don't be shy. Please, post to this thread and let's talk about why you think it's so inevitable. Don't just say "yeah, I agree with Senor Grommet" - give actual reason's. TRY to back your argument up with a rational, thought out statement that isn't just regurgitating what you saw on the evening news.

The challenge is there. Make your case for war - if you can.

wicked · Post by **wicked** » 31 Jan 2003 04:47

you know what this is OUR planet. This is our HOUSE.

I like thinking of it like that. This is what its like living with sadam....

Saddam is a terrible roomate. He is hiding a gun in his closet and I dont like that much. Many of the other roomates are expressing concern. Especially Israel, whos supposedly had the gun pointed at them and even been fired at? Yes Me, being the U.S., I have guns too. But they are locked in a glass case which requires Syncronized password authenticity. Weapons of this house shall only be used in an emergency, or in an already DECLARED war. They will not, under any circumstances, be used in a terroristic manner.

Sadams hidden gun isn't the only problem. Sadam and his friends are always over.... partying and messing with the other roomates all the time. Last time his buddy Bin was over and Broke something in my room.. what what it? oh yea the twin towers.. It took Me weeks to clean that mess! Sadam wasnt even sorry, and didn't help us clean the mess... Thanks to all the other kind roomates who helped me clean it.

None of the other roomates really like Saddam anymore. I say we kick him out!!!! Then we can get a new roomate. Someone who plays hack. I just want there to finally be a day, when i could realax, AND JUST GET SOME PEACE AND QUIET in this house! Maybe they will clean up his room for a change.... Plus he stinks! If nobody else does anything about it, then im just gonna kick him out myself. Even though im Pimpin it in the Guest house and im to far for him to shoot me, the lives of the other roomates are just as important.

And Oh yea kind fellow from Australia, i think your a really great roomate, but your always complaining about sadam, and then you dont ever say anything to him...? whats with all the behind the back talk? I say YOU go in there and see if he really has a gun.. hows that for an idea? NO!? Haha what are ya? chicken. Oh yea and canada You know i got your back, haha your always the neutral one

I know, im sorry, I know it was I (the U.S.) who gave sadam the gun. But it was for good intentions!!! Yea see um, his neighboor was giving him death threats...so.. I...well......I never thought he want to use them against us!!!

Listen Iraq is crazy guys! Not only will sadam and/or one of his buddies shoot one of us, the wakos will even shot themselves! He and his little group are just entirely too unstable. I dont want my daughter to have to live in this house with the threat of Sadam any longer.

The Time is Now.. And oh yea, Pe Prepared to see some new weaponry.

Lets Roll.

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 05:03

Wouldn't it be great if we could just kick him out? Shit, I'd just give him the house and go buy a new one if that were possible.

The fact of the matter is, we CAN'T kick him out. All the doors are locked and if you can somehow manage to break out, you can't breathe and your head explodes. Shitty deal, but it's just how it is.

While we're at it, I'd like to complain about our other roomate, George. He doesn't hide his guns, he walks around the house like he owns the joint and tells everybody what to do. If anybody tells him that they don't like it, they either get the shit beaten out of them, get shot or he steals all their food and they starve to death. I've already lost a lot of good friends to him; my Cambodian friends, my Vietnamese friends, my Afghani friends and I'm afraid I'm next.

If I wasn't such a peace lovin' guy, I'd start hiding guns in my closet too... and maybe I'd start trying to piss George off - he's been provoking me for long enough, that's for sure. He even tried to sell me some guns... said war was good for business.

Man, BOTH of these roomates suck, but what can we do, we are all forced to live under the same roof. We could blow their rooms up, but hey, that's my room right next door and if theirs burn, so does mine. Why don't we gas them out you ask? Well then all the food in all our cupboards goes bad and we starve to death.

So I propose that we have big household meeting and try to work our differences out before the whole damn house comes down and all our heads blow up.

Great analogy Eric.

wicked · Post by **wicked** » 31 Jan 2003 05:22

naa canada you dont have to worry about us, the good ole U.S.of A. ... come on we play hack all the time, yea george is a dick but so what he will be gone in a couple years.... Just chill the hell out for a second. Look someones gonna get shot. Your right, We Cannot remove the iraq room from the house completely, But we can Kick Sadam out. Iraq is Great. Sadam Sucks. WE CAN REMOVE HIM AND WE WILL. Its going to happen. War is innevitable. I just really want to get it over with.

Watch, Once Iraq is liberated and you punk asses see pictures of the torture devices, you guys will back the war..... Same shit happened in Germany when we took hitler out of power. haha you anti-war guys probably wouldn't have wanted us to go get hitler out of power either.!

Did you know that in germany most of the evidence of the mass murders weren't even released until after the war. You know, the pictures of those burned bodies and the gas chambers used to kill them? As far as most every day germans were concerneed they had no idea about the killings until after the war was over.

You anti-war people are speaking WAYYYY too soon.

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 05:22

wicked wrote:Yes Me, being the U.S., I have guns too. But they are locked in a glass case which requires Syncronized password authenticity. Weapons of this house shall only be used in an emergency, or in an act of war. They will not, under any circumstances, be used in a terroristic manner.

Tell that to millions of people that have died as a direct result of US foreign policy.
Tell that to the people of Kosovo.
Tell that to the literally millions of Cambodians who died in the '70's under US military occupation.
Tell that to the Jewes who died in the holocaust while George W's Grandpa was supplying over 40% of the steel to the Hitler regime.
Tell that to the people who protested the WTO and had rubber bullets and deadly nerve gas gas used on them while the were exercising their human right to peacefully assemble and protest.

WAR IS TERRORISM, no matter how you slice it. You don't think the people of Afghanistan were terrorised by US bombs?

A lot of you American's sure have a distorted view of World history.

Seriously, sometime you need to travel outside your own borders and get a grip on exactly why it is that most of the world HATES the US. They aren't jealous, they're tired of having US bombs dropped on their heads and US war ships preventing food and medicinal shipments from coming into their countries because their government wouldn't give them a good deal on oil.

Ever been outside the US Eric? Ever been to South Africa and asked a black man if he likes Shell(the oil co)? US based Shell Oil actively supported Apartheid. What did your government do about that? They gave them coporate welfare.

Fact of the matter is your glass case is always open and maybe George tells you he ain't doing anything with them, but ask around with your other roomates Eric, they'll tell you a different story.

wicked · Post by **wicked** » 31 Jan 2003 05:33

The Taliban should have been expecting those bombs to drop as soon as they saw the planes flying through the buildings. What i mean by Terrroist action is, to be done deliberately to kill innocent people, and without warning. When we went into Afganastan, our main targets were mainly military targets, and spots where terrorism was known to occur. We first went through the old Afgani regime, the Taliban. They were unwilling to extradite the criminals, and willingly took part in harboring known terrorist groups such as Al Queda.

Its not like we just started dropping bombs on them out of nowhere Alan. I cant beleive your even putting us in the same category as those terrorist people.

There is a difference bettween violent acts in a DECLARED war and violent acts in TERRORISM.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 31 Jan 2003 05:34

Senor Grommet wrote:And whats with all of this US bashing? Someone has to stand up for the rights of the innocent.

Aus Jeremy's brother says: MUAHAHAHA!! You just answered your own question! Standing up for the innocent is exactly what people are doing when they "US Bash." Let’s remember that the US are the only country to EVER use nuclear weapons. They (or if you prefer, YOU) attacked a completely civilian target in a war that had already been won, TIMED THE ATTACK TO COINCIDE WITH THE START OF SCHOOL TO MAXIMISE THE CASULTIES (that's school kids you were killing) and have never apologised or offered any kind of compensation. That single act killed more people than all the terrorist attacks ever! Let's also remember that the US still imposes massive trade sanctions on Cuba despite the General Assembly voting every year for the last 11 years to end the sanctions.

It's all very well to claim that Saddam COULD do all this stuff. But the fact is YOU guys are already doing stuff much worse than anything Saddam could ever accomplish. In a moment of rare sanity our Prime Minister (John Howard) claimed that the killing of civilians is never justified. If you think you can dispose of Saddam without killing any Iraqi civilians, then go for it. But you f*ck up and kill one Iraqi and you're just as bad as Saddam. Worse, because you're not under the constant threat of war.

This claim that "what if Saddam wipes out half the population of Canada" or whatever is a good one. What if the US wipes out half the population of Iraq? Does it concern you that the US is already responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis? Since the Gulf War and the trade sanctions imposed on Iraq their infant mortality rate has risen to above 60 deaths per 1000 live births (in most western countries it's about 5). What has Iraq done to you guys? (And I don't want to know what they might do). It seems the Iraqis could offer a much better case for war than you guys.

I'd like to leave you with a nice little quote from your beloved President:

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe, we are a part of Europe" - GWB

Love and peace, Kester

P.S Sorry if you're an intelligent American, this is not aimed at you.

War on Iraq

Should the US go to war with Iraq

im not wrong, we just have different views

Re: im not wrong, we just have different views

Re: im not wrong, we just have different views

Re: im not wrong, we just have different views