War on Iraq

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 18:09

Hey Jeremy(AUS) - Thank you for starting this thread and for your words. We need more informed people that care such as yourself.

Thank you to the American's who have spoken in the name of Peace.

I wish we could get more international context in this conversation. Not American? What's your opinion?

I wish that more of us would start to talk about this stuff. It's more important now than ever that we all talk to each other and try to reach understandings no matter how small you think your voice may be. We *must* communicate or people like Jeremy B. and Eric will have their way and then there will be no communication to be had.

Find out when the next war protest is in your area and go to it. Show your support for peace - even you people that believe in war. You say that you believe in peace but think that the only way is through war? Well prove it. Go to a peace rally. Listen to people, talk to people, challenge yourself and your assumptions.

This is a do or die situation. Madness and "evil doers" are threathening our freedom to live and breathe. Whether you believe the evil doers are Iraqi's or Americans or both, we all want peace right? Go support that ideal. I'm begging you.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 31 Jan 2003 18:59

wicked wrote:Aww, you shouldn't regret what your saying... They are just my beliefs okay?? I find things other people are saying offensive too, like i said just chill first of all. For all else not knowing this.... its like me, alan, and austrailian jeremy arguing about this at like 6 in the morning. yawn

This is going to sound really weird to you. But when it's six am where you are, it's actually about 11 pm where we are. This is because the world is a ball and it goes round the sun. This means that when you are on the other side of the world night and day happen at different times. I know that sounds really stupid, but it's the way things work and have done for quite a few years now.

And on another point. How to commit an atrocity more evil than the WTC attacks in three easy steps.

1. Put 5000 plus people in shipping containers with no air holes.
2. When they complain that they can't breathe add air holes with automatic machine gun.
3. Leave people in containers until fully fermented (remember, some of those people have had their brains blown out. Others of them are completely unhurt.

This is what your government was responsible for doing in Afghanistan.

I saw the WTC attacks live at about 12 am (there's that earth going round sun thing again). And yes I was deeply disturbed. Not just because I was witnessing people dying. But because I (and the people around me) were acutely aware of what the consequences would be. Some people seem to have this idea that the solution to irrational violence is more irrational violence. American Presidents, it appears are elected on this basis.

Don't think that because we're on the other side of the world we don't think it affects us or something. The attack in Bali were just (if not more) evil, but many of us (like in America) are able to put things in perspective and move on. We can't control the actions of others, but we can control our actions. Think for a change.

And another point: We do you the courtesy of spelling your country right regardless of what we think of it. Please show as the same courtesy (in case you are not aware it is Australia, not austrailia)

This Post was not written by Jeremy at all. It was actually written by Kester, Jeremy's twin brother. He's just created a profile but forgot to log in. He will be known as Texta for all further posts. This message does not repeat (unless you click refresh or something)

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 19:11

Senor Grommet wrote:Allan, what sources can you quote in your supposed truth that the US govt. knew 9/11 was going to happen?
i simply dont believe it, however i could be wrong.
Jeremy Mirken

Well, starting to admit that you could be wrong is certainly a step in the positive direction for this conversation. I *don't* say that to be condescending. I am aware that I too could be very wrong and mislead. We *all* need to open ourselves to that possibility instead of blindly believing one thing at the cost of actually listening to what people have to say.

The truth that is being unveiled out there about US government foreknowledge of 9/11 has very credible and pursuasive arguments. Of course there can be no absolute proof that this was the case, however, certain facts are coming to light that are very hard to ignore.

Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assasin in JFK's murder? Have you seen the Zapruder film? Are you open to the *fact* that there are subversive elements within the US government which conspire to goals other that your lofty constitution would provide?

That being said, there are varied sources that are rather easily found(like virtually anything you'd like to know about) by doing a simple web search.

Here's a list of links:

http://www.guerrillanews.com/after_math/ (*actually watch the film if you at all can*) - if you can't, here's direct link to the transcript:

http://www.guerrillanews.com/after_math ... script.PDF

OTHER LINKS:

http://unansweredquestions.org/

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... dmits.html

http://www.disinfo.com/pages/article/id2672/pg1/

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Joh ... eknow.html

There are pages and pages more, just look for it.

Now the thing about a lot of these reports is that most of them quote directly from the mainstream media. "They" aren't even really trying to hide the fact that they knew. They are betting that if they barrage people with enough information and distract them with wild goose chases like routing Sadaam out of power that they will be able to write the evidence out of history as they have so successfully done in so many other cases.

I have a video of a lecture that Michael C. Ruppert gave at Portland University where, over the course of almost two hours, he presents some very intriguing-yet-scary-as-hell concepts - all quoted directly from the mainstream media.

One of the facts that stands out to me the most after viewing all of this material is US Air Force repsonse in the initial minutes proceeding the hijackings, before the planes had taken their toll.

You may remember several years ago, Pro Golfer Payne Stewards airplane strayed off course and got into some trouble. I'm sorry I can't remember better details on this, but the point is this: US F-16 fighter jets were scrambled to intercept Stewards plane in under 10 minutes. This is standard FAA proceedure and happens whenever a plane goes off course for any reason, until it is ascertained that the plane poses no threat.

On the morning of Sept. 11th 4 planes were simultaneously hijacked and immediately took courses which any rookie air traffic controller could see was headed for the targets they were. Proper proceedure was followed in that the FAA contacted the Penatgon IMMEDIATELY and informed them of the situation, but for some unknown reason it took your 380 billion dollar military infrastructure *over 30* minutes before jet fighters even left the ground to intercept the hijacled planes - FAR too late to do anything about the outcome.

Now this is just straight fact. It's a matter of public record and as you can see from the links I gave, the timeline for the events of that morning is readily available.

Taken by itself this one peice of evidence offer's no substantial proof of foreknowledge of the attacks, however taken in context with the growing, large body of facts and and contradictions from the White House, a logical and rational conclusion may be drawn that the US government knew the attacks were coming and did nothing to stop them.

Pretty far out? Too radical for you? It's tough to swallow, that's for sure. But the lack of *any* official government inquery into these facts suggests that maybe there is something more to the story than what North American and many Europeans are being force fed through their corporate run "free press".

"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty" - Edward R. Murrow

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 19:27

wicked wrote:Here are just a few of the children who died as a result of the attacks.

There isn't enough room on this board to print the names of the children who have been killed by US bombings and "peace keeping missions".

We don't even know those childrens name's because of the complicity of the corporate media agenda in hiding the facts of American atrocities as well as a growing and alarming apathy of citizens towards knowing anything about it.

"Take away our PlayStations and we ARE a 3rd world nation." - Ani Difranco
(of course refering to her own nationality and audience at the time - Americans)

FootbagginBum · Post by **FootbagginBum** » 31 Jan 2003 19:39

I'm going to be reading this all night prolly, how did you guys manage to post 2 pages in under a day, eish.

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 19:50

FootbagginBum wrote: how did you guys manage to post 2 pages in under a day, eish.

I *know* eh? I've been slacking off work big time to participate in this discussion.... I'm soooo far behind all of a sudden!!

I think it's worth it for me to vent a little. I hope no one minds too much

It's easier to express your feelings over this medium than to get in an actual face to face argument with someone where it would escalate into a mess very fast. It's truly scary to have to fear speaking your mind in public to avoid being labelled a terrorist.

People are so hyped out on what they see on the news.

FootbagginBum · Post by **FootbagginBum** » 31 Jan 2003 19:53

well, its good to see you posting anyway, when I first started on here and went through the member list, I was excited to see you on here, but you never posted, so its cool.

wicked · Post by **wicked** » 31 Jan 2003 20:50

Hey Jeremy from Australia. Me and Alan are both on Pacific Standard Time. I was mainly refering to us, and how tired we were, not about you. For the record i know that different time zones exist lol. I noticed alot of my earlier questions have gone unanswered.

Such as:

1) Whos gonna go into iraq if the U.S.A. doesn't?...
2) If the answer is nobody, how will you keep sadam and other terrorist organizations from gaining power and weapons of mass destruction?
3) Would all the anti-war people on here still say "no to war" on iraq/binladen if they dropped a crude radioactive device on the World Footbag Championships?

wicked · Post by **wicked** » 31 Jan 2003 20:53

Oh dizzy i noticed you called Jeremy, "jeremy B." are you thinking benton, cause thats mirken.

wicked · Post by **wicked** » 31 Jan 2003 20:56

HAHA DONT TRY AND COVER UP YOUR IDENTITY JERMEY....
YOU KNOW IT WAS YOU NOT YOUR TWIN BROTHER!!!!!!!

I NOTICED YOU WERE ONE OF THE GUYS WHO HAD ALOT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS. I NOTICE HOW THAT TOPIC WAS TURNING WELL... ANTI AMERICAN....

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 20:58

wicked wrote: 1) Whos gonna go into iraq if the U.S.A. doesn't?...

Nobody.

wicked wrote:2) If the answer is nobody, how will you keep sadam and other terrorist organizations from gaining power and weapons of mass destruction?

Well first of all, not selling any to them would be a start. Going into Iraq isn't going to stop them from gaining any new weapons. In fact, invasion would likely give other nations more reason to sell them.

Here's an idea. How about the US starts to abide by some of the international treaties on arms reduction that it has signed and then ignored? It sure doesn't give a lot of people incentive to disarm when you guys keep beefing up.

wicked wrote:3) Would all the anti-war people on here still say "no to war" on iraq/binladen if they dropped a crude radioactive device on the World Footbag Championships?

Yes.

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 31 Jan 2003 20:59

wicked wrote:Oh dizzy i noticed you called Jeremy, "jeremy B." are you thinking benton, cause thats mirken.

Oops. My bad

Sorry about that Jer.

QuantumBalance · Post by **QuantumBalance** » 31 Jan 2003 22:03

Who is gonna steal that kid's lunch money if I don't do it?

President Bush · Post by **President Bush** » 31 Jan 2003 22:08

I'll do it!

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 31 Jan 2003 23:16

wicked wrote:HAHA DONT TRY AND COVER UP YOUR IDENTITY JERMEY....
YOU KNOW IT WAS YOU NOT YOUR TWIN BROTHER!!!!!!!

I NOTICED YOU WERE ONE OF THE GUYS WHO HAD ALOT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE LORD OF THE RINGS. I NOTICE HOW THAT TOPIC WAS TURNING WELL... ANTI AMERICAN....

I can take the credit for what my brother writes if you like and I don't see what difference it makes if it were me or not. I totally agree with everything my twin says. However if you go to this link and on page 33 you'll find a reference from the minutes (or whatever) of the Australian Parliament that mentions two twins from Tasmania, at that stage under 16, with the names Jeremy and Kester, coincidence?

[edit] I forgot the link:
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/reps/dailys/dr200999.pdf

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 31 Jan 2003 23:39

I never said the US deserved the S11 attacks. I believe that nobody deserves to die (except the wankers that walk through the footbag circle when you're playing somewhere). I thought it was pretty clear from my comments that I believed war was evil. By saying that, it means that I believe all war is evil, including "unofficial" wars like the Jihad against the US. I was trying, and I'm sorry this was too confusing for you Eric, to suggest that the US foriegn policy makers are just as bad as the terrorists they are fighting.

I am against all violence and believe that we should make every effort to prevent violence. I'm sure some smart person will mention WW2 and appeasement. To them I would say; appeasement was not a policy of preventing violence at all costs, it was ignoring what the rest of the world was doing. It is clear that violence and ignorance both lead to more violence. Rather we should attempt to educate and raise the standard of living throughout the world.

Do not feel that attacks on the US government are attacks on you. I am as disgusted by the Australian government as I am by the US one. Infact it's worse because we have compulsory voting and over 50% of adult Australians voted for the government, as opposed to in the US where I believe about 15% of adults voted for Bush

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 31 Jan 2003 23:52

wicked wrote: 1) Whos gonna go into iraq if the U.S.A. doesn't?...
2) If the answer is nobody, how will you keep sadam and other terrorist organizations from gaining power and weapons of mass destruction?
3) Would all the anti-war people on here still say "no to war" on iraq/binladen if they dropped a crude radioactive device on the World Footbag Championships?

Despite the fact that Alan has answered these questions so well, I thought I'd give you my thoughts as well.

1. What if, instead of going into Iraq with violence, the US, UN and other bodies attempted to bring stability to the middle east by bringing in aid, lifting trade sanctions, removing their own troops and starting education programes.

2. If the terrorists have no cause to fight for they will not attempt to gain power or weapons. If Saddam feels that there is no threat to Iraq (for example the US nukes in Israel) he would have no reason to arm himself, especially if there was a majority of well educated iraqi citizens who wanted constitutional change.

3. I would hope I would still say no war. Killing more people would not make me feel any better, infact it would make me feel worse. I would want the world to react by attempting to create a world where people did not want to take such actions, regardless of if they could or not.

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 01 Feb 2003 01:53

You said that waaay better than I did. Thanx Jeremy

dizzy · Post by **dizzy** » 01 Feb 2003 01:55

Man. Only 56% of people who have read this thread on are on the side of peaceful resolution

Yikes.

FootbagginBum · Post by **FootbagginBum** » 01 Feb 2003 09:16

I didn't vote yet, but technically I support peace, its just that some things need to happen, and not be ignored for the cause of peace,even if we don't do them.

War on Iraq

Should the US go to war with Iraq