what religion?

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 23 Apr 2007 18:30

flockpocken wrote:do you have a book that is thousands and thousands of years old and the number one seller in the world to prove this?

Are you saying that because it's old it is more believable? That because something is popular, that means it's factual?

HG · Post by HG » 23 Apr 2007 18:49

flockpocken wrote:i'm a strong christian (not in a sub-group, i go exactly by the bible). i'm not gonna lie, i got a lot of work to do on these forums.

You think that you have to make everyone believe what you believe? You have a lot of work to do here. man oh man, you have that backwards. We have a lot to do to YOU! you'll either never post about religion again after you argue about it on modified, or you wont come to modified anymore.

professor · Post by **professor** » 23 Apr 2007 19:02

Slowsis wrote:Now can you prove he exists in a concrete enough way that might give grounding to the persecution of homosexuals? How about all the africans denied proper education on Aids and the use of condoms, because the Christian religion of the missionaries who bring them bibles says its wrong? Are these injustices against humans worth it in the face of a god you cannot prove? Is FAITH enough to say that these people should live inferior lives?

I don't see the relevance of this in the context of what we were talking about.

Scott wrote:you can't assign a probability to the existence of God because the probability is either 0 or 1. But we can make a guess based on available evidence and say God probably doesn't exist

You can't say "you can't assign a probability" and then in the next sentence say "God probably doesn't exist". That's assigning probability.

Scott wrote:You know his brain is there not because of your belief but because of your knowledge of how the human body works.

Exactly. And based on the knowledge of how the universe works, the findings (evidence) seem to point to an intelligent designer. I don't believe in God out of blind faith, it's based on what I learn and observe about the world around me. DNA, ecosystems, the human body, changes I've seen in people's lives, etc. Did they all happen by accident? I don't think so, this was the work of a creator.

I think we kinda hijacked this thread, so if we want to continue the conversation, I think we should start a new topic or take it to the PM's.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 23 Apr 2007 22:19

man is god.

religion is a description of how some people think everyone should lead their lives, sometimes presented as though their ideas are backed by a god.

flockpocken · Post by **flockpocken** » 24 Apr 2007 04:59

alright. i'm done.... this battle cant be won.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 24 Apr 2007 08:24

professor wrote: Exactly. And based on the knowledge of how the universe works, the findings (evidence) seem to point to an intelligent designer. I don't believe in God out of blind faith, it's based on what I learn and observe about the world around me. DNA, ecosystems, the human body, changes I've seen in people's lives, etc. Did they all happen by accident? I don't think so, this was the work of a creator.

I think we kinda hijacked this thread, so if we want to continue the conversation, I think we should start a new topic or take it to the PM's.

So your evidence for God is that you personally don't understand how natural selection and biology work, so you come to the conclusion that because things appear unlikely to you to exist, they are unlikely to exist.

Let me ask a simple question;

35,000 unbaptised children under the age of 5 die of starvation every single day. That many died yesterday, that many died today and that many will die today. Does that happen by accident, or is that the work of a creator?

What do you think it would feel like to starve to death?

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 24 Apr 2007 09:28

good news Jeremy, unbaptized children no longer go to purgatory!

I'm glad they cleared that one up.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 24 Apr 2007 09:54

But Jeremy, how many of those kids were born to unmarried women ?

God punishes people for their sins, and obviously he is killing tens of thousands of babies every day to punish these women and their families.

professor · Post by **professor** » 24 Apr 2007 10:06

Jeremy wrote:So your evidence for God is that you personally don't understand how natural selection and biology work, so you come to the conclusion that because things appear unlikely to you to exist, they are unlikely to exist.

I understand how they work, but I think they require as much, if not more, faith to believe in than a creator. The basis of evolution is that all creatures have evolved over time and yet we have not found even a decent amount of hard evidence to back it up. No good fossil evidence has been found of evolutionary transitions. If there's supposedly been millions of years of evolution, then why do we have such a hard time finding species' transitional fossils? I understand fossilization is a rare occurance, but you would think there would be many transitional fossils of all species after hundreds of millions of years.

If people have such a hard time putting their faith in the existence of God, then why do they find it so easy to put the same amount of faith in a scientific theory?

Jeremy wrote:35,000 unbaptised children under the age of 5 die of starvation every single day. That many died yesterday, that many died today and that many will die today. Does that happen by accident, or is that the work of a creator?

Again, I don't see what this has to do with the existence of God. Are you implying that because bad things happen to people, God must not exist?

And why can't modified ever have a discussion without people posting sarcastic and haughty comments? Is it necessary to patronize to get your points across?

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 24 Apr 2007 10:31

while religion has been stuck looking for missing links in the fossil records, science has gone ahead and sequenced the genomic content of organisms.

We know with 100% certainty that organisms evolve.

There is no debate, the only two sides to this issue are :
1) Creationist and intelligent designers are whack, but should be allowed to have their beliefs
2) Creationist and intelligent designers are whack and should be told to STFU

In the real world, those are the two sides to the issue of evolution.

Tsiangkun · Post by **Tsiangkun** » 24 Apr 2007 11:01

Of course the united states in currently riding a time machine backwards through evolution.

We know that the religous reproduce quicker, and produce more offspring than the educated liberal elite. It is only a matter of time before the faith based community will be the majority of the united states population. So, while we enjoy laughing about them now, in a few decades, they will have the numbers to squash advancements in science, engineering, and medical sciences. Already we can see that four men have decided that they know what is best for the entire female population of the united states. They made their decision based on their religious views. None of the SCOTUS justices voting against women are doctors, and yet their beliefs are strong enough to let them override what a doctor believes is best for their patients health.

Just a little sample of the dark times ahead for the united states.

cammel · Post by **cammel** » 24 Apr 2007 15:53

HG wrote:you'll either never post about religion again after you argue about it on modified, or you wont come to modified anymore.

flockpocken wrote:alright. i'm done.... this battle cant be won.

Henry is prophetic. We should worship him instead of some people in some old book.

HG · Post by HG » 24 Apr 2007 18:16

holler

Scott · Post by **Scott** » 24 Apr 2007 19:21

professor wrote

I think we kinda hijacked this thread, so if we want to continue the conversation, I think we should start a new topic or take it to the PM's.

I wouldn't worry about that, I think this thread was well and truly hijacked a long time ago.

You can't say "you can't assign a probability" and then in the next sentence say "God probably doesn't exist". That's assigning probability.

Well I've had to do some research about this one because I hadn't heard of Bayesian probability before. When I said "you can't assign a probability" I was talking about frequency probability which is technically correct but "Bayesian probability is supposed to measure the degree of belief an individual has in an uncertain proposition, and is in that respect subjective" (from wikipedia for those interested). So I suppose you can assign a probability to the existence of God, just not a statistically derived one.

and also

based on the knowledge of how the universe works, the findings (evidence) seem to point to an intelligent designer. I don't believe in God out of blind faith, it's based on what I learn and observe about the world around me.

If belief in God were somehow related to your knowledge of how the universe works then wouldn't you expect there to be a positive correlation between an understanding of how the universe works and a belief of god. In fact the opposite is true, and i would be willing to bet that your belief in god was formed well before you came to understand the workings of the universe, are your beliefs really based on the evidence or have you selected the evidence that fits with your beliefs.

There is plenty of evidence that god doesn't exist, at least not the one described in any religious text. For instance if the god of the bible were true and that god really does care about us then why doesn't god provide some undisputable evidence for his existence. And why would god allow his word (the bible) to be used to perpetrate such atrocities as have been committed in the name of god in history. I'm sure it would be possible (especially for god) to provide a text declaring the laws that humans are to live by in a way that avoids the kind of ambiguity that has allowed such abuses as have been done in the name of god.

Moxie · Post by **Moxie** » 24 Apr 2007 19:55

Scott wrote:If belief in God were somehow related to your knowledge of how the universe works then wouldn't you expect there to be a positive correlation between an understanding of how the universe works and a belief of god. In fact the opposite is true, and i would be willing to bet that your belief in god was formed well before you came to understand the workings of the universe, are your beliefs really based on the evidence or have you selected the evidence that fits with your beliefs.

Nice.

professor · Post by **professor** » 24 Apr 2007 22:40

Scott wrote:If belief in God were somehow related to your knowledge of how the universe works then wouldn't you expect there to be a positive correlation between an understanding of how the universe works and a belief of god.

Yes and there is. The more I learn about the universe, the more I appreciate/understand/realize God's complexity and creativity.

Scott wrote:i would be willing to bet that your belief in god was formed well before you came to understand the workings of the universe

You'd be right. This is how most things work though. I believed the sun would rise in the morning before I understood why.

Scott wrote:are your beliefs really based on the evidence or have you selected the evidence that fits with your beliefs.

There's no overwhelming evidence that I've found that doesn't fit with my beliefs.

Scott wrote:For instance if the god of the bible were true and that god really does care about us then why doesn't god provide some indisputable evidence for his existence.

The problem with this question is that to humans, everything is disputable. We didn't land on the moon, Elvis and 2pac aren't dead, and Vasek's not human; to name a few examples.
I would think creating a universe as vast and complex as ours would be enough evidence, not to mention actually coming to earth, being killed, then rising again just like he said he would.

Scott wrote:And why would god allow his word (the bible) to be used to perpetrate such atrocities as have been committed in the name of god in history.

First, I don't claim to understand God. If I did, I would be God and that would not be good for any of us. Second, God created us with the ability to make choices, whether right or wrong. Would you rather not have that freedom, but have a perfect world? I don't think so. It would be like in the movie iRobot when the new robots force the humans to remain in their homes for their own protection. If you've seen it you know what I'm talking about.

Scott wrote:I'm sure it would be possible (especially for god) to provide a text declaring the laws that humans are to live by in a way that avoids the kind of ambiguity that has allowed such abuses as have been done in the name of god.

1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourselves an idol.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

Those seem pretty unambiguous to me and just in case 10 commandments is too much, Jesus sums them all up in just 2.

Matthew 22:35-40
35 One Pharisee, who was an expert on the law of Moses, asked Jesus this question to test him: 36 "Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?" 37 Jesus answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.' 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.' 40 All the law and the writings of the prophets depend on these two commands."

The problem is not with God, the problem is with us.

junkyardjew · Post by **junkyardjew** » 25 Apr 2007 08:30

1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make for yourselves an idol.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

Those seem pretty unambiguous to me and just in case 10 commandments is too much, Jesus sums them all up in just 2.

WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH hold on now buddy - you DID NOT just quote the ten commandments. Have you read the old testament? As if the ten commandments are unambiguous instructions from god? Wow.

And then as a kicker you throw in the name of jesus! I love it!

So, out of curiousity, do you wear a cross with an image of jesus on it? Cause I'd say thats strike one. And do you stone those who commit abominations? Cuase you're instructed to by the bible, while, not "murdering" of course - wouldn't want to break a commandment.

How about keeping the sabbath day holy? which one would be the first question, and when does it start, the second.

I could go on, but I don't think it'll do any good. just wanted to poke you a little.

Slowsis · Post by **Slowsis** » 25 Apr 2007 10:44

2000 years from now, people will be quoting books on dianetics and saying the savior Tom Cruise was resurrected from the Holy Top Gun to return from the grave and star as Ethan Hunt in Mission Impossible, while preaching the word of Scientology to the world. Soon after this he was bludgeoned to death with an E-meter by Katie Holmes.....he died for our sins.

flockpocken · Post by **flockpocken** » 25 Apr 2007 13:16

lol..

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 25 Apr 2007 20:34

professor wrote: The basis of evolution is that all creatures have evolved over time and yet we have not found even a decent amount of hard evidence to back it up. No good fossil evidence has been found of evolutionary transitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tr ... al_fossils

In the 1980s there was only one example of transitional species between fish and amphibians. Since then we have now found at least 16 more species.

http://www.devoniantimes.org/Order/new-order.html

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

This is why I hate religion so much. Because it makes people not only reject human knowledge, but they promote ignorance.