At 6:04 Exactly, Derek Durski pwns Dinesh D'Souza.

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Post by Guest_1 » 18 Mar 2008 09:52

james wrote: agnostics are pussies (no offense of course, to any agnostics out there).

I hope I've explained myself sufficiently.
There is nothing wrong with agnosticism. There is also nothing acceptable about that statement.

As long as we are on the path of discussing infinity, doesn't a physical form restrict the infinite. By definition, something physical is a limitation. Therefore, G-d is not physical and nothing physical can be G-d or worshipped as G-d. Make sense?

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Post by james » 18 Mar 2008 12:12

Jeremy, not a single thing you said refutes in any way what I've been trying to say. You're ceaselessly beating around the bush.
I don't give a shit about the myriad religions and how they evolved, it's meaningless to this discussion. I'm talking about the actual impossibility of the reality of a god.


MarvlMan you just agreed with me that a god needs be infinite in order to be god (because having a form would be a restriction and god cannot be restricted)...


so, is there even anything here for me to argue?
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Post by Guest_1 » 18 Mar 2008 13:04

james wrote:Jeremy, not a single thing you said refutes in any way what I've been trying to say. You're ceaselessly beating around the bush.
I don't give a shit about the myriad religions and how they evolved, it's meaningless to this discussion. I'm talking about the actual impossibility of the reality of a god.


MarvlMan you just agreed with me that a god needs be infinite in order to be god (because having a form would be a restriction and god cannot be restricted)...


so, is there even anything here for me to argue?
How a physical thing (Jesus) could in any way shape or form be G-d ;-)

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Post by james » 18 Mar 2008 13:23

I had a feeling I was wasting my time...
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Post by Guest_1 » 18 Mar 2008 13:53

james wrote:I had a feeling I was wasting my time...
I had a feeling you were wasting your time too :-) :wink:

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Post by Guest_1 » 18 Mar 2008 14:08

edit* zing!

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Post by Jeremy » 18 Mar 2008 15:03

MarvlMan wrote:
There is nothing wrong with agnosticism. There is also nothing acceptable about that statement.
It depends what you mean by "agnosticism." Richard Dawkins says that some people would call themselves agnostics if they held the same position as him. The problem is that you can't disprove the existence of something that doesn't exist (unless you're very specific about what it is, where it is, and how you'd be able to know that it really does exist). Therefore it's impossible to be 100% sure that God doesn't exist. However given all that we know about human development, various religions and the physical world, I think it would be reasonable to put the chance of God existing as along the lines of 0.000... 0001% - and of course part of the reason for that is which God are we talking about? There are thousands, and they all have the same amount of evidence to support them. We can trace their historical development just as well (in most cases) - we can see that they're human inventions (that doesn't mean that they aren't coincidentally true, but that, as I've just stated, must be extremely unlikely). Importantly, most of these gods are mutually exclusive. There is a very slim possibility that Islam is right and there is a very slim possibility that Christianity is right, but they can't both be right (as in exactly right; you could theorise some kind of amalgamation, but you'd have to be changing the religions).

Agnosticism really means "Not Gnostic" or "Not Religious" (usually specifically referring to the Abrahamic religions). However it has come to mean somebody who sits on the fence; somebody who isn't sure if God exists or not. The problem with this, of course, is that there are thousands of Gods. Is an agnostic equally as unsure about the existence of Zeus as they are about the existence of the Christian God? What about a God that I make up on the spot right now? Is an agnostic sure that my invented God does not exist?

Of course I've made a small and deliberate error in this post. I claim that there is a small chance that a God exists. Actually it's an undefined chance, and it could well be 0. The problem is that there is as much real evidence to support the God I invented just now, as there is to support any other god, and that is absolutely no evidence. If there really aren't any gods, we can explain why the world is how it is; the world appears and behaves as if there are no gods; and this means we have no reasons to think that there are gods.

So agnosticism can either be logically inconsistent, when they dismiss the existence of Gods other than the one that is dominate in their culture, or it is just stupid, when people are unwilling to say that they are sure the god somebody invented on the spot doesn't exist.

As long as we are on the path of discussing infinity, doesn't a physical form restrict the infinite. By definition, something physical is a limitation. Therefore, G-d is not physical and nothing physical can be G-d or worshipped as G-d. Make sense?
What is your evidence that God is infinite?

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Post by james » 19 Mar 2008 03:45

Occam's razor also disproves god, not that it's even necessary because you'd have to be a complete tard to think you'll live forever (no offense to all the tards out there of course).

Honestly that's really what it comes down to. YOU WILL NOT LIVE FOREVER (even after you die...duh).
This is not an opinion, not a belief. It is the truth. It is 100% certain. There is not a 0.00001% chance that it is not so.
This fact alone renders god useless. Why you ask? Well if you can't figure that out you might as well continue to ignore what I'm saying.

How much more painfully obvious can it be? You want proof? Jump off a bridge.


Alas, the human capacity for sheer disregard (of the truth) of such uncomfortable notions will continue to facilitate the fermentation of the cesspool that is our species.
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Post by Jeremy » 19 Mar 2008 04:12

Occam's razor doesn't really disprove anything. It's just a comment about which statement you should take more seriously. It's easy to conceive situations where following Occam's razor would result in making the wrong decision. A great example would be the theory of gravity; where if you suggested string theory in the seventeenth century, people would be completely justified in dismissing your theory, because there would be no evidence to support it, and it would be needlessly complicated, compared with other (wrong) theories of gravity - especially the theory that it is a force of attraction between matter. At that point in time, Occam's razor is completely in favour of Newtonian gravity and opposed to the theories related from string theory. 300 years of scientific progress, and we can be sure that the Newtonian theory is wrong. While I'm obviously an atheist, it's clear that you can only use Occam's razor to tell people which answer is most logical to believe, not which answer is right. By sheer coincidence, invented theories without evidence to support them could hypothetically be correct.

Ultimately you're failing because science doesn't prove things, it only ever disproves things; and this is one of the strongest criticisms of a lot of "Christian science" - because it's completely unscientific to try and prove that something is true. You can't do it. You can only prove that specific things are not true. "God" is not a specific term, so you can't prove it true or false. If you were very specific and you said, God is visible to all humans and she is sitting on a chair 1m away from me to my left; I could disprove that (at least to everybody who came and looked). If you say that God can't be seen or heard unless you truely believe in his existence, and he lives outside the physical world and is everything, it's a meaningless statement. It can't be proven or disproven. We just have to take your word for it, or dismiss it, like we'd dismiss most claims about the world that have no evidence to support them. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it just seems very unlikely.

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Post by james » 19 Mar 2008 05:06

Occam's razor was mentioned merely in passing, and is of least concern in my last post.

If you're going to respond to something, respond to this:
Honestly that's really what it comes down to. YOU WILL NOT LIVE FOREVER (even after you die...duh).
This is not an opinion, not a belief. It is the truth. It is 100% certain. There is not a 0.00001% chance that it is not so.
This fact alone renders god useless.
Stop beating around the bush! Science is great, but I could care less. My argument has nothing to do with science.
Sometimes, people are wrong. Sometimes, ideas are wrong. Yes it's ok to say something is wrong. How unlikely does something have to be for you to admit that it is wrong? Can it ever be unlikely enough?
Sometimes following likely things leads to other likely things, some of which may not readily lend themselves to physical observation. Does that mean it's wrong? Reality is not right or wrong, it just is. You can know reality.
I don't need to know the laws of physics to know that they exist.
And yes, technically you cannot ever prove/disprove god. You want to know why? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST

Oh wait, we can always go back to trying to define god. The damn word is meaningless. For serious.
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Post by Guest_1 » 20 Mar 2008 08:50

james wrote: Sometimes following likely things leads to other likely things, some of which may not readily lend themselves to physical observation. Does that mean it's wrong? Reality is not right or wrong, it just is. You can know reality.
I don't need to know the laws of physics to know that they exist.
You sound like a nut. There is no commandment to just 'believe' in G-d. There is a commandment to 'know' G-d. That means, logically determine G-d is true and adhere to that. Not just blind faith. You should figure out the laws of physics. The Rambam (1500 years ago) states that learning science and physics connects you to G-d and helps you to better understand the logic behind him and strenghtens your fulfillment of that commandment.

It's nuts with the mindset of the catholic church of just believe and don't ask questions that caused the church to be such a bloody and suppressive regime. faith=bad!

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Post by james » 21 Mar 2008 23:18

I logically determine that you are wrong.
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