Self Serving

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 29 Jul 2003 03:32

What do you think about self serving? Personally I have absolutly no problem with it, I think not selfserving is a purposeless tradition with no real positive (or negative) effect.

Acid~Reign · Post by **Acid~Reign** » 29 Jul 2003 04:26

When I first started, I started with people that self-served so I find no problem to it. But I think I can see two possible reasons why people discourage it:

If there's no self-serving, it's not quite as easy to hog the bag. I'm sure people have had experiences where someone's self-served to himself 6-7 times in one turn and still doesn't pass it on. This stems back to an etiquette issue I guess.

It makes the circle run more smoothly (apart from when you pass it back, and they don't wait it so they pass it on but the passerbacker insists etc) from the point of view of within a circle and for an onlooker. It also makes shredding more 'communal'.

It encourages a higher degree of skill and concentration.

It diminishes ones ability to count which I guess falls back to the first reason of one person trying 5+ times.

If everyone agrees, do it. If only some people in a circle are partial to it, try to make it the exception and not the rule I guess.

NotHisRealName · Post by **NotHisRealName** » 29 Jul 2003 04:42

http://modified.in/footbag/viewtopic.php?t=1038

We've had this very same discussion before, but it's always relevant.
The url will take you to the thred where you'll find comments by The Enforcer, himself.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 31 Jul 2003 14:55

I remember back when self serving would get you some heckling. We used to have circles of up to 10 people at C.O.D. (Schwa country)

In smaller circles, I would NEVER self-serve. If I messed up and dropped, then I served to someone else and maybe had the bag kicked back to me to retry. If somebody messed up and it looked like they wanted to try again right away, I would probably kick it once or twice and pass it back to them.

A good practice if you want the bag again(after dropping) is to say "gimmie" as you hand toss the bag to someone else.

And if it looks like they want the bag again after they drop, say "back" or "you" as they throw it, so they know to expect the pass.

Self-serving when there is only two people kicking should be acceptable sometimes.
Always hand passing the bag with only 2 people can upset the rhythm, or tire you unneccessarily(if you're out of shape like me

).

I usually glance around before self-serving in public, I won't do it if a lot of people are watching.

"Nothing is as powerful as an example"
- some famous guy I can't remember

hacksterbator · Post by **hacksterbator** » 31 Jul 2003 15:11

i'm gonna be blatantly honnest here. i self serve alot. that's where my name came from. i don't see a problem with it. as long as you do it within reason, i don't do a big long run, drop, self serve and do another hugle long run, drop, self serve, etc. when i'm trying one trick i might self serve a few times just trying to hit one trick.

Chris Holden · Post by **Chris Holden** » 31 Jul 2003 15:59

OMFG not this topic again!

here's teh deal, if you drop, bail, the, etc, pass the bag.

These are the exceptions:

if it was your first move and everyone in the circle is cool with it.

if you get the bag passed back to you, which technically isn't self serving.

or you're in a circle where 2-3 tries is always cool.

Personally, I want to get the bag, hit my contacts and pass it on.

NotHisRealName · Post by **NotHisRealName** » 31 Jul 2003 23:30

I think Chris has pretty much hit the nail on the head, with his comment. It's basic footbag etiquette, just like 'no toe pickups' (or Chicken scratch, as I've read here, somewhere) with someone else's bag (let alone your own).

HooD · Post by **HooD** » 01 Aug 2003 14:34

I've self-served, I still self-serve, and i'll keep self-serving. I try to minimize it when with friends, and when at events, i try to completely stop unless i know everyone well in the circle. If their heads pop off cause i slip up and grab the bag to do my mirage again and pass it off, oh well.

RRendsvig · Post by **RRendsvig** » 01 Aug 2003 18:08

Bail as in bailing to a butterfly, an osis?

Though rules... Anyways, I like people to pass it as well, but if your with your friends and everybody wants to impress by hitting one-two bigger moves, then it's coll. But then your basicly skooling in circle, so... Don't in general.

chestnut127 · Post by **chestnut127** » 02 Aug 2003 04:27

sometimes i pass it to my self, sometimes i don't. it depends if i am trying to do something or not

jhibbs · Post by **jhibbs** » 02 Aug 2003 21:35

I play alone most of the time, so when I'm in a circle, i NEVER self-serve. (i was playing alone for 8 months before ever being in a circle, so i try to respect it alot) If i want more play time, i can stay home and play alone.

I believe the way the bag always travels in a single direction after a screw-up is part of the beauty of the circle, and to self-serve interrupts this flow. I also agree that as soon as you self serve you are taking the next person's turn, which is just as polite as cutting in line, etc.

Also I have some pretty strong feelings about rebates. Although most of the time I will accept them, and alot of the time give them out when i feel needed, I think they should NEVER be asked for, this is always up to the next player if he is willing to wait longer for his turn in order to give you a second chance, not for you to ask/guilt them into giving it to you. it just irks me to no end (definitely my biggest circle pet peeve).

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 07 Aug 2003 05:51

Chris Holden wrote:OMFG not this topic again!

here's teh deal, if you drop, bail, the, etc, pass the bag.

These are the exceptions:

if it was your first move and everyone in the circle is cool with it.

if you get the bag passed back to you, which technically isn't self serving.

or you're in a circle where 2-3 tries is always cool.

Personally, I want to get the bag, hit my contacts and pass it on.

No offence, but I don't really see much of a view here, it seems more like fence sitting. Basically it seems like you're saying that its only ok to self serve if the circle doesn't mind, if they do then it's not ok. That seems pretty obvious to me.

I guess the most important (and obvious) rule, which I'm sure virtually everybody follows, is to follow the rules of the circle. If Kenny Shults (or anyone else) came and kicked in a Melbourne circle and complained about selfserving, I would politly tell him to shove it. If I were kicking in one of his circles, I wouldn't selfserve and would expect him (or someone) to dis me if I did.

However the question I'm asking - or thought I was asking, is (rephrased) "is self serving (in general - not in particular circumstances) ok?"

I'm in two minds about the issue to be honest. I like to see people hit combos/moves that they've had a bit of trouble or whatever hitting, and I also think that everyone should have an equel (or at least over a minimum) time with the bag in circle - unless they feel that they ought to pass it on.

But I can also see that a circle with no selfserving encourages the players to go for long runs, but I also think it causes them to perhaps go easier than they are capable of, which I don't think is a huge problem providing they don't hit stomping toe stalls or the like in the middle of runs (when they are easily capable of going guiltless). Personally I've been attempting to lenghthen my runs and so have been passing it on when I drop (more than usual at least). However I wouldn't ask other players in the circle to do that as well, just becuase I personally am using it to help my game. If a majority in the circle were not selfserving, I might. I should also say that when I get the footbag, I often self serve to start - usually because the pass is at catching height, rather than kicking, but also because I like the control, and I have absolutly no problem with starting a run with a self serve.

I wonder how Kenny starts( or started, since it seems like he may have retired from competing) his routines at comps - with a selfserve, or by getting someone to throw him the bag?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 09 Aug 2003 01:33

Self servers:

Why even bother playing with anyone at all?

Why doesn't everyone in the circle just play with their own bag and all play at once?

What game is it that you play? and where did you learn how to play it?

Right now, there are hundreds of thousands hacky sackers out there. Very few of them "shred"; they think "super jester" is the hardest move out there. Almost all of these people have heard about not self serving.

The courtesy toss is possibly the most fundamental aspect of footbag that has persisted from old school hack to new school shred.

It's not just tradition, it's karmic law.

If I was standing in a circle when Kenny came up and "said something about self serving" and some one told him to "shove it", I would walk away and never play with that person again.

Self servers make the game look horrible to an outsider. Self servers make the game less enjoyable for every one else in the circle.

If you think self serving is cool or okay, please don't try to spread your hate for the game and ignorance of it's history outside of your own little club. If you go to a tournament, respect those that don't self serve.

Self servers: serve yourself with a little self respect; STOP SELF SERVING!!!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 09 Aug 2003 01:35

jhibbs wrote:If i want more play time, i can stay home and play alone.

FUCKING A+!! Perfectly stated.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 09 Aug 2003 06:51

Good to see you have the courage to let us know who you are. You raised some interesting points.

You say that if someone told Kenny to "shove it" you would walk away and never play with that person again. Firstly this is a slight misquote because I said I would politly tell him to shove it. What I meant was I would reword "shove it" into a polite sentance. I don't know about you, but I'm not into abusing people over their opinions. But that's not the point, the point is, you seem to be inferring (correct me if I'm wrong) that becuase of what Kenny has done for the game - there is nothing wrong with him coming into a circle of people he doesn't know and telling them how they should play the game (the situation I described, rather than what I think Kenny would really do). Now I think that's bullshit. I greatly admire Kenny for everything he has done for footbag and I have a lot of respect for him. However there is noway I would ever change my beliefs because someone told me to. Kenny does not own the sport of footbag and he has no real control over its direction. Sure more people would listen to him than would listen to someone like me, but I don't believe that gives him a right to order other people about (nor do I think he would, and I am sure he would respect the rules of the circle he is in as much as anyone else). I feel a little awkward using Kenny as an example in all this because I have never met him, have no idea what he is like and don't want to disrespect him by putting words into his mouth or something similar.

You also said "The courtesy toss is possibly the most fundamental aspect of footbag that has persisted from old school hack to new school shred.

It's not just tradition, it's karmic law."

Clearly the courtesy toss is not a fundamental aspect of footbag at all. Lots of people play footbag, however a majority (at least at this site) self serve. Again what we see here is a view that those that created the sport, own the sport. I couldn't disagree more. Sure selfserving footbag is not what they intended, but they have no right to tell the rest of us what we can and cannot do - only what they think we should and shouldn't do. As for courtesy tossing being "karmic law", as far as I can see, this means that if you give someone a courtesy toss, someone else will give one to you. But using this logic, if you selfserve, someone else will self serve too. I have no problem with this. Obviously there are times when you should not selfserve, you should try to make sure the footabag keeps moving around the circle, but the reason is this is so that the rest of the circle doesn't end up hating you and stops you from kicking with them, or just talk about you behind your back if the circle is a polite one. I only believe in "tradition" if it serves a practicle purpose.

To answer your questions.
Why even bother playing with anyone at all?
1. it is much easier to learn new moves.
2. I can spend longer playing (don't get tired as quickly)
3. I enjoy watching footbag, and watching videos over and over eventually gets boring.
4. I enjoy the social side of it - talking about ideas, going for pizza afterwards etc.

Why doesn't everyone in the circle just play with their own bag and all play at once?
Because then I wouldn't be able to get them to help me with new moves, I would get tired just as quickly as playing by myself, I wouldn't get to watch more footbag and I wouldn't get to talk to other people in the circle. (we warm up like that sometimes)

What game is it that you play?
It's called freestyle footbag

And where did you learn how to play it?
primarily from www.footbag.org and also from the other players in Melbourne.

MJK · Post by **MJK** » 09 Aug 2003 11:59

I get a lot of enjoyment out of a circle that just flows. Self-serving (and in fact, rebates) prevent this, and make the circle overall less enjoyable for me. Of course, if the person before you goes, and drops right next to your foot, then of course you should pick up, but this doesn't damage that flow. The flow creates focus, and focus prevents dropping (some of it) which eliminates the need for self-serving.

jon · Post by **jon** » 09 Aug 2003 18:31

If anyone ever spazed out at me in a circle for something as simple as one self serve as I know some people would I would promptly give them the finger and leave.

the Executioner · Post by **the Executioner** » 10 Aug 2003 17:16

self serving is self-ish.
weak.
boring.

jhibbs · Post by **jhibbs** » 10 Aug 2003 20:36

you seem to be inferring (correct me if I'm wrong) that becuase of what Kenny has done for the game - there is nothing wrong with him coming into a circle of people he doesn't know and telling them how they should play the game

it has nothing to do with kenny in particular, its not kenny's rule, its just very widely accepted as "proper" (and as you know there are very very few "rules" to this game). also hes not coming and "telling" you something as if it was standing on your head or some stupid shit, its a very standard part of the game.
but the bottom line is, it's about being selfish, as pete says. if you are in a circle where even ONE person dislikes self-serving, you are being selfish by doing it.
however if everyone in your circle is fine with it (which seems to be the case from how you're arguing) then no one really cares, just realize that when you step into anyone elses circle, its assumed.

Lots of people play footbag, however a majority (at least at this site) self serve.

i have to strongly disagree to at least part of this statement. this is speaking for many people who may not agree with you. i know there are many people on this site opposed to self serving, and saying that this site is a measure for the rest of the footbagging community is a bit ridiculous.

I only believe in "tradition" if it serves a practicle purpose

the practical purposes are encouraging you to do your best on your first try, and not taking away from anyone elses turn. and i for one enjoy tradition, and especially seeing as this is one of the only ones IN this sport, im not going to just toss it out the window for the sake of getting more playing time.

i have nothing against you or your opinions, and as i said before if you wanna sit there and self serve all night in your circle thats fine with me, just make sure everyone else in that circle doesnt mind.

mc · Post by mc » 10 Aug 2003 21:07

I think for self serving to really go away, people not only need to be aware of the fact that it's a bad thing, they also need to make sure to be conscious enough of what's going on to give passbacks when they're well deserved. I feel like, in the past, some of my self serving infractions have been the result of the belief that everyone in the circle besides the guy after me is being very good about giving the bag back when it's appropriate. and furthermore, this often appears to be not because they are sticklers or enforcers who simply don't think you deserve another chance, but because they're not paying attention to what's going on. they're talking to someone inside / outside the circle to the point where they're very distracted, they're not giving much attention to anyone else's shred... this behavior can get frustrating, and is just as bad of an etiquette offense as self serving. it's rude and non-conscious of the group... a self-serving behavior instead of a self-serving act.

as I've gotten more into the footbag scene, I've made a strong attempt to keep my self serving away from tournaments (although I probably slip up once in a while), but that doesn't mean that I don't think that sometimes the problem that causes someone to self-serve is partially external to themselves.

not only am I against self-serving, I'm pro-good, polite, conscious, reasonable etiquette in general

can't wait to see you guys at funtastik.

m@

Self Serving

Do you self serve in a circle?

Self Serving