Yes! Support my car company!Outsider wrote: Lets send our money to Saturn...
wait... We aren't talking about GM, are we?
Fahrenheit 9/11
-
MegaFighter_X
- Post Master General
- Posts: 2334
- Joined: 27 Apr 2003 16:52
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
Mark Morford's Notes & Errata column
Oh my God but Michael Moore is infuriating.
He has made a massively flawed quasi-documentary that treads
dangerously close to excessive propaganda, a movie that
never lets BushCo have the slightest hint of breathing space
(not that they really deserve it) and he zooms his camera in
on the distraught faces of weeping mothers and tormented
soldiers and holds the lens there far too long, making you
go, OK OK, enough already with the misery porn and the
emo-manipulation.
Moore takes numerous cheap shots and finds far too many easy
targets among the political elite, and he cleverly edits his
footage to make the various politicians he skewers appear
even more vacuous and slithery and alien and sad than they
normally might, which is already quite a lot, I mean would
you just look at Dick Cheney because wow the man is sinister
subterfuge incarnate. Shudder.
"Fahrenheit 9/11" is packed with missed opportunities. It
argues obvious points far too weakly and never really digs
very deeply, or very coherently, into the sinister
underbelly of How It All Really Works.
And Moore never lays sufficient blame on the weak-kneed
Demos, all of whom voted for BushCo's war and all of whom
basically rolled over and begged for scraps when the GOP war
machine steamrolled in and demanded the nation cower in fear
so they could attack a wimpy volatile hate-filled pipsqueak
nation that dared to threaten its global petrochemical
interests.
However. "Fahrenheit 9/11" is also shockingly stirring and
thought-provoking, the first major film of its kind to ever
smack down a sitting president and his heartless,
hawk-filled administration so successfully, so clearly, so
shamelessly. It is propaganda made fresh, inspired,
explosive, irrefutable.
And you know it's working. After all, when's the last time a
documentary filmmaker became the target of the full force of
the GOP spin machine? When's the last time anyone made any
sort of attempt to seriously question, in public,
fearlessly, unapologetically, in a mass media format, the
blatantly oily warmongering of a current administration?
When's the last time a documentary was the number one movie
in the nation, not to mention one seriously calling into
doubt the snide motives of our government's call to war,
while the war was still underway? Never, that's when.
This, then, is the fabulous thing about Moore's flick. Sure
most of what the movie reveals might seem painfully obvious
to anyone who follows the news with any sort of intellectual
dexterity. And yes, most of what Moore uncovers about
everything from BushCo's appalling Saudi oil connections and
his administration's whore-like corporate favoritism and the
stealing of the '00 election you've heard a thousand times
before.
But no one has yet strung these things together in any
substantive way in the popular media. No one has had the
casual nerve to show how deep and far back BushCo's Saudi
ties actually run (hint: way, way back), letting us know who
it is who really signs Bush's paycheck (hint: it ain't the
taxpayers).
No one has so successfully put a package together that can
actually be successfully digested by the "average" American
citizen, the vast majority of whom, it must be noted,
blithely believe the major media spin and Fox News' alarmism
and never really question their government, never get to
hear any sort of smart, anarchic message, never see the dark
underbelly revealed in any substantive, comprehensible,
entertaining, humorous, intelligent way. And for this, you
have to fall down in front of Moore's film in abject thanks.
After all, we're Americans. We tend to forget, very quickly,
how it was, just after BushCo was elected, or just after
9/11, or just after the war on Iraq was declared. We forget
how thoroughly the GOP-fueled fear saturated the country's
air like a rank perfume, how rabid patriotism was our
national drug, how violent warmongering was forced upon us
some sort of mandatory, painful surgery, the only option for
a heartbroken, exhausted nation. Take a moment. Try to
remember.
Remember how timid and appallingly pro-war the media was
during the launch of "Operation Iraqi Freedom." Remember
Ashcroft's malevolent Patriot Act. Remember the orgasmic
glee of the "embedded" reporters who were allowed to ride on
big scary tanks and speed across the desert in big
impressive convoys of U.S. killing machines, as meanwhile
just outside the camera's range, thousands of mutilated
corpses of babies and women and innocent civilians lay in
the rubble as the "real" war raged on, just out of the
American public's view.
And remember how you thought, oh my God, something is so not
right about this. Something is terribly unsound about our
thinking and methodology and macho gun-totin' kill-'em-all
isolationist Texas-swaggerin' approach to the world. This is
not a war for freedom. This is not a war for safety of
American soil. Bush is marching us straight into a hellish
quagmire, and no one seems to be asking why.
"Fahrenheit," then, isn't just a movie. It's a breakthrough.
A reminder that a nation not only can, but should, ask why.
Moore has taken the most successful initiative to date to
rip away the veil of fear the GOP had laid over the nation
like a stifling blanket, one that had, until recently, kept
everyone from pundits to politicians from speaking out and
disagreeing with BushCo's rancid stew of lies and misdirects
and fearmongerings, lest they be instantly branded an
America-hating liberal tree-hugger communist who sleeps with
Osama.
Which is, of course, exactly what the GOP is trying to do
with Moore, right now, calling him an enemy of the state, a
traitor, an America-hater, a liar and a cheater and sodomite
and pedophile and fat slobbish hypocritical pig and
goddammit how dare you use that footage of Bush sitting
there like a stunned blank-faced monkey at that pre-school
for seven full minutes after he was informed that a second
plane had rammed into the WTC and that the nation was under
terrorist attack.
I mean, no wonder the GOP is all frothy. Not only does the
film make Bush appear even more of a bumbling, inarticulate
dolt than usual (which required, admittedly, nearly zero
effort on Moore's part), but it reveals him to be so
appallingly disconnected, so politically spoon-fed, so
completely and frighteningly lost, you can't help but
realize who the real threat to America's health and safety
really is.
It's also easy to disagree with Moore's own implied
politics, a truly annoying, mishmash stance that seems to
support more troops and more aggression in Afghanistan on
the one hand, while at the same time decrying attacking Iraq
and painting Baghdad as some sort of gentle happy harmless
utopia before the U.S. stomped in and tore apart Saddam's
blissful Eden.
Moore has been attacked, often rightfully so, for his
scattershot politics, his implied hypocrisy, perhaps no
better and more pointedly than by prolific political
wonkhead and rabid gin aficionado Christopher Hitchens, who
decimates Moore and his movie on every level (Hitchens makes
no apologies: he just really, really hates MM) in his mostly
excellent, if somewhat hysterical, Slate editorial.
But in the end, Moore's own politics, and his film's
unapologetic propagandist bent, don't really matter. What
matters is how the movie has helped make radical dissent a
healthy part of American discourse again. How Moore has
re-opened the gates of independent thought and proved that
the GOP's famous lightning bolts of spin and hate did not
strike him dead as he did so. Helluva gift to the nation,
that.
And when you combine "Fahrenheit" with another, less
polemical, more straightforwardly frightening must-see
documentary that's out now, called "The Hunting of the
President," which delineates the GOP's shockingly savage,
historic, calculated attempt to destroy Bill Clinton, you've
got a portrait of a Republican Party that makes the frayed
ragtag fundamentalist nutballs of the Taliban look like some
sort of Tupperware party.
Look. You can disagree with Moore's opinions and his often
patronizing conclusions all you want. But you can't, after
all, refute his facts. Moore's movie has done more than
merely free up the pundits and the disgruntled military
generals to speak out, or make timid reporters actually dig
for truth again. He has done more than help put surprising
words of dissent and criticism back into the mouths of
congressmen and the major media.
He has, in short, made Middle America think again. He has
cracked the GOP's frozen ideological sea, showed us all one
thing that we have so desperately forgotten. That America
does not, after all, have to be this way, and that its
citizens do, in fact, have a choice.
And for that reason, "Fahrenheit" is perhaps the most
wonderfully patriotic film ever made.
Thoughts for the author? E-mail him.
Mark's column archives are here
Mark Morford's Notes & Errata column appears every Wednesday
and Friday on SF Gate, unless it appears on Tuesdays and
Thursdays, which it never does. Subscribe to this column at
sfgate.com/newsletters.
"This is not an electorate easily swayed by reasoned
discourse. If it were, the war on Iraq might never have been
initiated. The winning formula for this election won't be
convincing the formerly hostile; it will be mobilizing the
already convinced."
Peter Y. Sussman (Alternet)
Oh my God but Michael Moore is infuriating.
He has made a massively flawed quasi-documentary that treads
dangerously close to excessive propaganda, a movie that
never lets BushCo have the slightest hint of breathing space
(not that they really deserve it) and he zooms his camera in
on the distraught faces of weeping mothers and tormented
soldiers and holds the lens there far too long, making you
go, OK OK, enough already with the misery porn and the
emo-manipulation.
Moore takes numerous cheap shots and finds far too many easy
targets among the political elite, and he cleverly edits his
footage to make the various politicians he skewers appear
even more vacuous and slithery and alien and sad than they
normally might, which is already quite a lot, I mean would
you just look at Dick Cheney because wow the man is sinister
subterfuge incarnate. Shudder.
"Fahrenheit 9/11" is packed with missed opportunities. It
argues obvious points far too weakly and never really digs
very deeply, or very coherently, into the sinister
underbelly of How It All Really Works.
And Moore never lays sufficient blame on the weak-kneed
Demos, all of whom voted for BushCo's war and all of whom
basically rolled over and begged for scraps when the GOP war
machine steamrolled in and demanded the nation cower in fear
so they could attack a wimpy volatile hate-filled pipsqueak
nation that dared to threaten its global petrochemical
interests.
However. "Fahrenheit 9/11" is also shockingly stirring and
thought-provoking, the first major film of its kind to ever
smack down a sitting president and his heartless,
hawk-filled administration so successfully, so clearly, so
shamelessly. It is propaganda made fresh, inspired,
explosive, irrefutable.
And you know it's working. After all, when's the last time a
documentary filmmaker became the target of the full force of
the GOP spin machine? When's the last time anyone made any
sort of attempt to seriously question, in public,
fearlessly, unapologetically, in a mass media format, the
blatantly oily warmongering of a current administration?
When's the last time a documentary was the number one movie
in the nation, not to mention one seriously calling into
doubt the snide motives of our government's call to war,
while the war was still underway? Never, that's when.
This, then, is the fabulous thing about Moore's flick. Sure
most of what the movie reveals might seem painfully obvious
to anyone who follows the news with any sort of intellectual
dexterity. And yes, most of what Moore uncovers about
everything from BushCo's appalling Saudi oil connections and
his administration's whore-like corporate favoritism and the
stealing of the '00 election you've heard a thousand times
before.
But no one has yet strung these things together in any
substantive way in the popular media. No one has had the
casual nerve to show how deep and far back BushCo's Saudi
ties actually run (hint: way, way back), letting us know who
it is who really signs Bush's paycheck (hint: it ain't the
taxpayers).
No one has so successfully put a package together that can
actually be successfully digested by the "average" American
citizen, the vast majority of whom, it must be noted,
blithely believe the major media spin and Fox News' alarmism
and never really question their government, never get to
hear any sort of smart, anarchic message, never see the dark
underbelly revealed in any substantive, comprehensible,
entertaining, humorous, intelligent way. And for this, you
have to fall down in front of Moore's film in abject thanks.
After all, we're Americans. We tend to forget, very quickly,
how it was, just after BushCo was elected, or just after
9/11, or just after the war on Iraq was declared. We forget
how thoroughly the GOP-fueled fear saturated the country's
air like a rank perfume, how rabid patriotism was our
national drug, how violent warmongering was forced upon us
some sort of mandatory, painful surgery, the only option for
a heartbroken, exhausted nation. Take a moment. Try to
remember.
Remember how timid and appallingly pro-war the media was
during the launch of "Operation Iraqi Freedom." Remember
Ashcroft's malevolent Patriot Act. Remember the orgasmic
glee of the "embedded" reporters who were allowed to ride on
big scary tanks and speed across the desert in big
impressive convoys of U.S. killing machines, as meanwhile
just outside the camera's range, thousands of mutilated
corpses of babies and women and innocent civilians lay in
the rubble as the "real" war raged on, just out of the
American public's view.
And remember how you thought, oh my God, something is so not
right about this. Something is terribly unsound about our
thinking and methodology and macho gun-totin' kill-'em-all
isolationist Texas-swaggerin' approach to the world. This is
not a war for freedom. This is not a war for safety of
American soil. Bush is marching us straight into a hellish
quagmire, and no one seems to be asking why.
"Fahrenheit," then, isn't just a movie. It's a breakthrough.
A reminder that a nation not only can, but should, ask why.
Moore has taken the most successful initiative to date to
rip away the veil of fear the GOP had laid over the nation
like a stifling blanket, one that had, until recently, kept
everyone from pundits to politicians from speaking out and
disagreeing with BushCo's rancid stew of lies and misdirects
and fearmongerings, lest they be instantly branded an
America-hating liberal tree-hugger communist who sleeps with
Osama.
Which is, of course, exactly what the GOP is trying to do
with Moore, right now, calling him an enemy of the state, a
traitor, an America-hater, a liar and a cheater and sodomite
and pedophile and fat slobbish hypocritical pig and
goddammit how dare you use that footage of Bush sitting
there like a stunned blank-faced monkey at that pre-school
for seven full minutes after he was informed that a second
plane had rammed into the WTC and that the nation was under
terrorist attack.
I mean, no wonder the GOP is all frothy. Not only does the
film make Bush appear even more of a bumbling, inarticulate
dolt than usual (which required, admittedly, nearly zero
effort on Moore's part), but it reveals him to be so
appallingly disconnected, so politically spoon-fed, so
completely and frighteningly lost, you can't help but
realize who the real threat to America's health and safety
really is.
It's also easy to disagree with Moore's own implied
politics, a truly annoying, mishmash stance that seems to
support more troops and more aggression in Afghanistan on
the one hand, while at the same time decrying attacking Iraq
and painting Baghdad as some sort of gentle happy harmless
utopia before the U.S. stomped in and tore apart Saddam's
blissful Eden.
Moore has been attacked, often rightfully so, for his
scattershot politics, his implied hypocrisy, perhaps no
better and more pointedly than by prolific political
wonkhead and rabid gin aficionado Christopher Hitchens, who
decimates Moore and his movie on every level (Hitchens makes
no apologies: he just really, really hates MM) in his mostly
excellent, if somewhat hysterical, Slate editorial.
But in the end, Moore's own politics, and his film's
unapologetic propagandist bent, don't really matter. What
matters is how the movie has helped make radical dissent a
healthy part of American discourse again. How Moore has
re-opened the gates of independent thought and proved that
the GOP's famous lightning bolts of spin and hate did not
strike him dead as he did so. Helluva gift to the nation,
that.
And when you combine "Fahrenheit" with another, less
polemical, more straightforwardly frightening must-see
documentary that's out now, called "The Hunting of the
President," which delineates the GOP's shockingly savage,
historic, calculated attempt to destroy Bill Clinton, you've
got a portrait of a Republican Party that makes the frayed
ragtag fundamentalist nutballs of the Taliban look like some
sort of Tupperware party.
Look. You can disagree with Moore's opinions and his often
patronizing conclusions all you want. But you can't, after
all, refute his facts. Moore's movie has done more than
merely free up the pundits and the disgruntled military
generals to speak out, or make timid reporters actually dig
for truth again. He has done more than help put surprising
words of dissent and criticism back into the mouths of
congressmen and the major media.
He has, in short, made Middle America think again. He has
cracked the GOP's frozen ideological sea, showed us all one
thing that we have so desperately forgotten. That America
does not, after all, have to be this way, and that its
citizens do, in fact, have a choice.
And for that reason, "Fahrenheit" is perhaps the most
wonderfully patriotic film ever made.
Thoughts for the author? E-mail him.
Mark's column archives are here
Mark Morford's Notes & Errata column appears every Wednesday
and Friday on SF Gate, unless it appears on Tuesdays and
Thursdays, which it never does. Subscribe to this column at
sfgate.com/newsletters.
"This is not an electorate easily swayed by reasoned
discourse. If it were, the war on Iraq might never have been
initiated. The winning formula for this election won't be
convincing the formerly hostile; it will be mobilizing the
already convinced."
Peter Y. Sussman (Alternet)
-
HighDemonslayer
- Egyptian Footgod
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: 17 Jun 2003 19:34
- Location: Arizona
I just saw "Bowling for Columbine" on cable for the first time.
"Bowling.." was more propaganda than documentary.
I will definitely not spend cash to watch "9-11"
I'll see "9-11" if I still have my ticket after seeing "SpiderMan 2"
I'll look for some of his straight-up lies, for Allan.
of course I'll be quoting somebody, so feel free to point out where I mention something that wasn't in the film.
-n
"Bowling.." was more propaganda than documentary.
I will definitely not spend cash to watch "9-11"
I'll see "9-11" if I still have my ticket after seeing "SpiderMan 2"
I'll look for some of his straight-up lies, for Allan.
of course I'll be quoting somebody, so feel free to point out where I mention something that wasn't in the film.
-n
Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
-----------------------------------
-nathan
-----------------------------------
-nathan
Editing has been removed from this section because it's supposed to be for serious discussion where people say what they mean and mean what they say. Too many people go back and edit their posts when they feel stupid about having said something and it can totally derail a topic. So now we can either think about what we say before we say it, or we let our stupidity stand.
Sorry Allen, but don't go.
Old Skool
For starters...while I love Moore's movies, I don't consider them to be documentaries because they are completed sided and opinionated. A documentary by my definition is more objective showing all points of view on a particular subject.
Now that that's out of the way...I've seen F911 2 x's. Loved it. Probably loved it more than otherwise because I hate Bush. Also, Moore has a good sense of humor.
Lies...That's what I wanted to reply to. As if the Bush administration isn't an abyss of lies and deceptions to begin with, there seems to be some distruths in F911. I haven't researched them to see if they are in fact untrue... but here's what I heard. On NBC last Friday(?) night, there was an interview with one of Osama Bin Laden's brothers (well, more like a half-brother -- different mothers). He said it was not true that the Bush Administration saw to it the the Bin Laden's were safetly and immediately evacuated from the states by plane after 9/11. In fact, they were grounded for 7 days after 9/11 because all of the airports were locked down. no special treatment for them there. Like I said, i don't know if that's true or if what moore said was true. The interesting correlation I drew immediately was that this brother of Osama's has a similar interest of Moore's...hollywood film. this guy wants to become a film producer...his american dream. so, duh, of course this guy is speaking out now, finally, because he is probably getting mad publicity and moore has just given him a huge window of opportunity to create a movie in rebuttal to F911. that's obviously just my opinion...i have no idea if these are his true intentions.
Regardless, Bush is the worst American president *ever* in the history of our nation for too many reasons to list here. Go Kerry!!!!
Now that that's out of the way...I've seen F911 2 x's. Loved it. Probably loved it more than otherwise because I hate Bush. Also, Moore has a good sense of humor.
Lies...That's what I wanted to reply to. As if the Bush administration isn't an abyss of lies and deceptions to begin with, there seems to be some distruths in F911. I haven't researched them to see if they are in fact untrue... but here's what I heard. On NBC last Friday(?) night, there was an interview with one of Osama Bin Laden's brothers (well, more like a half-brother -- different mothers). He said it was not true that the Bush Administration saw to it the the Bin Laden's were safetly and immediately evacuated from the states by plane after 9/11. In fact, they were grounded for 7 days after 9/11 because all of the airports were locked down. no special treatment for them there. Like I said, i don't know if that's true or if what moore said was true. The interesting correlation I drew immediately was that this brother of Osama's has a similar interest of Moore's...hollywood film. this guy wants to become a film producer...his american dream. so, duh, of course this guy is speaking out now, finally, because he is probably getting mad publicity and moore has just given him a huge window of opportunity to create a movie in rebuttal to F911. that's obviously just my opinion...i have no idea if these are his true intentions.
Regardless, Bush is the worst American president *ever* in the history of our nation for too many reasons to list here. Go Kerry!!!!
Jane Zerbe
RCS
RCS
ah, another lie (potentially) that I have not researched. Moore always claims to be from impoverished Flint, MI. Rumor has it that his hometown is actually outside of Flint in a ritzy suburb. Unfortunately I work with a bunch of rural redneck republicans so I have the joy of having to listen to Rush every morning. this is where I heard this tidbit. though I don't believe, agree with or enjoy a single thing Rush has to say. okay, blood pressure is rising...gotta get off this topic.
regardless, I like Michael Moore and his movies.
regardless, I like Michael Moore and his movies.
Jane Zerbe
RCS
RCS
i don't know where moore was born, but for some period of time he lived in davison, mi, which is right outside of flint (i have no clue whether davison is ritzy or ever was ritzy, though). i believe that's where he went to high school and then was elected to the board of education. he did attend the university of michgan at flint, and lived in flint after high school. but i don't know if he grew up in flint proper and then moved to davison or what not. maybe someone is a better internet sleuth than i am and can find his birth certificate and records of where he attended elementary school.
i got all excited at first when you were talking about rush cause i thought it was the band. bah. shouldn't you all be non-partisan at work? bah, what do i know. tom sawyer rules!
i got all excited at first when you were talking about rush cause i thought it was the band. bah. shouldn't you all be non-partisan at work? bah, what do i know. tom sawyer rules!
Mike Strumpf
okay, so i did a little more searching around. apparently moore was born in davison, and lived there through high school. i don't belive davison was (or is) a ritzy neighborhood because it was built around the gm plant that moore's father and grandfather worked at, and was later closed by roger smith (you might remember that from roger & me). just because he lived for 18 years in a suburb of flint and then for years in flint proper doesn't mean he can't claim that he's from flint. and davison sounds less than ritzy to me.
Mike Strumpf
-
HighDemonslayer
- Egyptian Footgod
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: 17 Jun 2003 19:34
- Location: Arizona
Funny, recalling the "Bowling for columbine" the other day... i noticed Moore seemed more critical of Clinton early in the movie.
bombing 2000 civilians and infrastructure across Serbia with absolutely no national security reason or interst. Us bombing the Middle east under Clinton occuring on the day of the Columbine massacre.
Yet Moore doesn't seem to be the enemy of the Clintons.
Of course, the media and peacenik public all give Clinton a pass for his unnecessary killing of thousands of innocent Serbs.
I don't know if it belongs in this thread, but I was trying to convey the idea that Clinton MUST be elevated to be a great president, so all others must be denigrated, especially George Bush, to allow him even one success on anything might overshadow Clinton's greatness.
From an ideological standpoint, Bush, now a destroyed man and impotent president, must be relentlessly attacked, his perceived poor presidency MUST AT ALL COSTS make Clinton look good.
Pardon the rant.
-n
bombing 2000 civilians and infrastructure across Serbia with absolutely no national security reason or interst. Us bombing the Middle east under Clinton occuring on the day of the Columbine massacre.
Yet Moore doesn't seem to be the enemy of the Clintons.
Of course, the media and peacenik public all give Clinton a pass for his unnecessary killing of thousands of innocent Serbs.
I don't know if it belongs in this thread, but I was trying to convey the idea that Clinton MUST be elevated to be a great president, so all others must be denigrated, especially George Bush, to allow him even one success on anything might overshadow Clinton's greatness.
From an ideological standpoint, Bush, now a destroyed man and impotent president, must be relentlessly attacked, his perceived poor presidency MUST AT ALL COSTS make Clinton look good.
Pardon the rant.
-n
Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?
-----------------------------------
-nathan
-----------------------------------
-nathan