American Military sucks?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 15 Jul 2005 06:43

I was at another forum which is dominated by republican American's who seem to spend a lot of time bagging out the French Military and it made me realise something: Is the American Military any better?

I'm not talking about if they do the right thing going to war and all that shit - but are they actually any good?

US Military won the Korea war - but really it's still going on,
Defeated in Vietnam
Have achieved total chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan
Pretty much defeated in Somalia

Have completely failed to catch Osama Bin Laden - don't even look like doing it anymore.

Many blunders such as bombing the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade.

Not only that but the US spends more on its military than the rest of the world combined. What do you use that money for? Making flags and tall hats? How did the US get the reputation for having the best military in the world? Is it just nationalism propaganda that has spread across the world because we're invaded with US media? You'd have to say, based on the facts the US military is a long way from the best in the world. Why?

bigdirtyfoot · Post by **bigdirtyfoot** » 15 Jul 2005 06:53

Hahahahaha are you talking about club stogie? Those guys are pretty... frustrating, to say the least.

American Military is a lot of propaganda.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 15 Jul 2005 11:15

1. The U.N. "won" the Korean war, but not really.

2. The politicians lost Vietnam. You can't win Vietnam/Iraq/???? when you are blindfolded, ears stuffed, and your hands are tied behind your back.

3. Somalia, we had tanks that Clinton wouldn't send, so we ran.

In total assets, perhaps not troop numbers, US is the best (today).

The fact is, the U.S. military can and did storm through any country in short order.

America "loses" conflicts due to weak civilian leadership, poor propaganda,micromanagement of every bullet from Washington and paralysis due to political correctness.

Other Western nations are also afflicted by this debilitating, and possibly terminal condition.

The military has bombs and planes and missiles that you could stack all the way to the moon.

Yet the military is told to fight a guerilla war, , every action reviewed by a flaming attorney.

Vietnam Redux - not because of the enemy, they and their cities can be defeated in a week or two.

In the end, it is blunders and pathetic weakness by Clinton and Bush that allows these problems.

The endless legions of American and Western apologists carping Al Qaeda
propaganda don't help either.

p.s.

Wear a blindfold and tie your left ankle to your upper left thigh for your next shred comp. and tell me how you do.

-n

bigdirtyfoot · Post by **bigdirtyfoot** » 15 Jul 2005 11:18

You make all of the wars that the United States fight seem as if we're playing an adult boardgame, and not an actual war. If we actually NEEDED to go to war, we would fight "for real," but instead it seems like we're doing it for show? I don't really understand that.

blackcrown · Post by **blackcrown** » 15 Jul 2005 11:36

Who's better?

Eric

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 15 Jul 2005 11:56

hmm, good question!

Well the Australian military is highly regarded and we've been very successful in most of our last campaigns (East Timor, Solomon Islands, Indonesia)

I'm just kidding... but seriously, I've got 'em!

hmm. It is hard because there aren't many countries with imperalist policies that lead them to invading other countries - so they don't have their military tested very often.

blackcrown · Post by **blackcrown** » 15 Jul 2005 12:44

Okay, I guess the next question is: What's your definition of a good milittary? We have the ability to kill everybody on the planet, what more do you want?

Eric

p.s. This sure seems like a troll.

smpdustin15 · Post by **smpdustin15** » 15 Jul 2005 17:34

israels army is the bestest military evar. the would wipe out the world if everyone didnt bitch that they were killing people which in my head is what a military is supposed to do.

NotHisRealName · Post by **NotHisRealName** » 15 Jul 2005 17:47

I think the problem with Iraq at present is that there is no leader to accept defeat against the Americans.

In Gulf War pt 1, America (and it's buddies) did win. They got Saddam and Iraq out of Kuwait. Now it's no longer a war against a country, it's a war against a people. Tanks and bombs and jets cannot win a war like that.

SandWraith · Post by **SandWraith** » 15 Jul 2005 18:14

I agree with Dustin; Israel's army is probably the best in the world as far as tactics and the ability to kill many, many people, proportional to their own population (whether that's a good thing or not is a matter of opinion).

The US military, in my opinion, is considered one of the best in the world because of the state-of-the-art technology and sheer manpower pumped into it, but if you want to talk about real destructive powers, there are plenty of nukes in plenty of countries so that is quite the equalizer.

But really--- wtf is this topic supposed to be arguing? You really just seem to be trying to bait americans into arguing with you, Jeremy, and it's rather juvenile. I have the utmost respect for you as a footbagger and as a human (from what little I have seen/read from you)... except on political issues. I am american, although I don't measure my own worth by the exploits of my country. All the same, it irks me to have you so constantly insulting and prodding americans in general.

I hope this doesn't come off as too whiny or offensive to you, Jeremy, as that's not how I intended it to sound.

Bander87 · Post by **Bander87** » 15 Jul 2005 19:16

Haha Zach, we dont have to argue EVERYTHING in this section

.

I think the US millitary could be a lot better if the people at home made better decisions.

NotHisRealName · Post by **NotHisRealName** » 15 Jul 2005 19:39

Zach, I didn't see Jeremy as 'America Bashing' again - nor do I see him as 'baiting' americans into an argument. He was merely asking why everyon considered the American Military to be 'the best' when clearly it's not.
If you're insicure with being an American, that's your problem. America is so prominant in the world that it will eventually come up in any discussion (just like Nazi's).

How did the US get the reputation for having the best military in the world? Is it just nationalism propaganda that has spread across the world because we're invaded with US media? You'd have to say, based on the facts the US military is a long way from the best in the world. Why?

-Jeremy

NotHisRealName · Post by **NotHisRealName** » 15 Jul 2005 19:40

Kiser_Tobias wrote:Zach, I didn't see Jeremy as 'America Bashing' again - nor do I see him as 'baiting' americans into an argument. He was merely asking why everyon considered the American Military to be 'the best' when clearly it's not.
America is so prominant in the world that it will eventually come up in any discussion (just like Nazi's). If you've a problem with that, well...

How did the US get the reputation for having the best military in the world? Is it just nationalism propaganda that has spread across the world because we're invaded with US media? You'd have to say, based on the facts the US military is a long way from the best in the world. Why?
-Jeremy

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 15 Jul 2005 23:56

Sorry I'm not trying to bait anybody at all. I just realised that the US actually don't do well in conflicts regardless of their size and money.

I would say is a good army is an army that wins - ie achieves the goals it sets out to do. Killing people is not a aim at all. For example - Iraq - the aim was to defeat terrorism, liberate the people and bring stability to the country. While you could say the liberation has been achieved - it's clear that at this stage defeating terrorism and stability are actually worse than before the war (at least in Iraq). That's a failure.

I'm not looking at motives or right and wrong and all that stuff at all - just success at achieving the set goal.

I'd agree that Israel certainly achieves a lot of their goals - although I guess it's fair to say they have lots easier goals than the US military (ie. Kill - ok that's a bit simplistic but you know what I mean).

It's just an academic exercise - which military is the most successful in the world? I don't really want to discuss ethics or any of that stuff

MegaFighter_X · Post by **MegaFighter_X** » 16 Jul 2005 01:41

Jeremy wrote:Sorry I'm not trying to bait anybody at all. I just realised that the US actually don't do well in conflicts regardless of their size and money.

I would say is a good army is an army that wins - ie achieves the goals it sets out to do. Killing people is not a aim at all. For example - Iraq - the aim was to defeat terrorism, liberate the people and bring stability to the country. While you could say the liberation has been achieved - it's clear that at this stage defeating terrorism and stability are actually worse than before the war (at least in Iraq). That's a failure.

I'm not looking at motives or right and wrong and all that stuff at all - just success at achieving the set goal.

I'd agree that Israel certainly achieves a lot of their goals - although I guess it's fair to say they have lots easier goals than the US military (ie. Kill - ok that's a bit simplistic but you know what I mean).

It's just an academic exercise - which military is the most successful in the world? I don't really want to discuss ethics or any of that stuff

I like the definition of "victory" you have Jeremy. However, there are certain "wars" that have no place being waged. Wars on people are purely objective. War against Germans, English, Canadians, whites, asians, christians, buddahists. Those are winable. There is a clear objective: Kill the enemy until they surrender and become our bitch or we become their bitch.

When you wage wars on ideas, there is no possible way to win. War on Drugs, for example. Sure, drugs are a bad thing. Who's defining drugs though? Some asshole in a suit in a country that's hardly 200 years old. You can't win against drugs. If you get rid of one source, another 3 will pop up. Same thing for this war on terror. The definition of terrorist is broad. Well.. at least it normally is. Apparently right now the definiton of "terrorist" is Middle Eastern male between 15-30 who does not immediately conform to ideals of an American democracy.

But off that tangent, the war on terror is an IDEA. "Terror" can be described many ways. Hell, as I see it, right now the American armed forces are the biggest terrorist threat in the world. I'm not saying this to disrespect the soldiers at all. They are doing what they are told by the commander in chief. I say this because the US president can't see that we are holding a country hostage! And any other country that is "harboring terrorists" will be terrorized by the US!

What if these terrorists aren't really terrorists, but just patriots of their own country? It's possible.

Erm... now getting back on topic...

For wars against people, the US can win hands down. Technology and nukes say it all. The brute force tactics can overwhelm any other army hands down. However, when a war against an idea comes around, the US is at a loss. There isn't much you can really do against a vague idea. Back to my previous examples of people, you can wage a war on Christians or Buddahists, but when you turn it into a war on Christianity or Buddahism, the war becomes absolutely impossible to win.

Wow... I could almost use this for an essay in college. j/k...

Anyone have problems with what I said, PM me, and I'll do the best to clarify. If you still got a problem after that... Well... damn... Gotta invade wherever you're at.

Outsider · Post by **Outsider** » 16 Jul 2005 17:50

Jeremy said:

I'd agree that Israel certainly achieves a lot of their goals - although I guess it's fair to say they have lots easier goals than the US military (ie. Kill - ok that's a bit simplistic but you know what I mean).

The goal of the Israeli Defense Forces is the survival of their nation. Its a country very small in area and population. They are surrounded by numerous countries all of which are hostile to Israel. The day after Israel declared her independance, the armies of 7 neighboring nations attacked. They have been attacked numerous times since then. They Israeli military has managed to defend the country against numerically superior forces every time. Odds have never been in their favor, but they have never lost. They cannot lose. They have nowhere to retreat to if they did. The only place for the Israel to go in retreat is into the see, and that is exactly where her neighbors wish to push her. Israel has received support from other countries, but nobody has every actually fought by her side. The Israelis have done that all by themselves. They have something like a 40 to 1 win ratio in air combat, the best in the world. The equipment is good (they buy jets from the US, but they have been innovative themselves: Israel has an industry based on improving the aviation technologie of other countries. Nations buy US jets and send them to Israel to be upgraded with Israeli technologies) and the training is good, but it is also bold decisions and good planning that enabled them to destroy the majority of the Egyptian and Jordanian airforces while they were still on the ground during the Six Day War of 1967. It was a similar combination of the right equipment, training, planning, and bold decision making that allowed Israeli jets to destroy Iraq's nuclear power plant just before it went on-line in 1981. The mission was carried out at night on a weekend to minimize the loss of life at the power-plant. The bombs were dropped with such accuracy that military analysts suspect that smart-bombs were used. The Israelis claim that conventional bombs were used. All the jets returned safely, successfully completing a mission that had them fly over the airspace of three hostile nations. One story says that over Saudi airspace the jets were detected on radar, but there were flying in such a tight formation, and spoke such good arabic, that they convinced the radar operators that the six fighter planes were just one passenger jet.
All other details aside, just the fact of Israel's continued existence is testament to the quality of the Israeli military.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 17 Jul 2005 08:51

I like Jeremy's definition about the army completing it's goals to determine success. High bodycount is not always the goal, nor does it secure victory.

Tsunami relief for example , was a military success.

While the U.N. ran around in circles with their thumb up their butt, worrying about what hotel was good enough to stay in, the military was delivering assitance and supplies.

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The Israeli military is not a good example of the "best", because the civilian leadership is impotent. The israeli military will only flex it's muscles big after it is to late for them.
( i.e. Israel receives death blow, annihilates oil producing enemies with it's last gasp.)

The civilian leadership is about to use some 40,000 troops to evict several thousand Jewish settlers from their homes(in Gaza and West Bank), while Hamas brags victory and promises more attacks.

The greatest military mobilization in 30 or so years against it's own people, without even a phony promise of peace from their neighbors.

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Maybe the greatest military in the world is China. They are not presently bogged down in a conflict. They are set to take Taiwan, and threaten us with nukes if we interfere. And I predict we will back down. Taiwan will become a textbook example of a successful military invasion.

-n

Emo · Post by **Emo** » 17 Jul 2005 09:18

War should not take lifes...

...War should be won by a game of dodgeball or a round of Counter-Strike

Uranos · Post by **Uranos** » 18 Jul 2005 05:27

Emo wrote: ...War should be won by a game of dodgeball or a round of Counter-Strike

Wanna IP number?

dragonhack · Post by **dragonhack** » 18 Jul 2005 07:31

i say the american militairy is horrible.if you can tie youre boots correctly you get a damn commendation for gods sake....

the canadian militairy is by far much better than the american militairy...

but the french forign legion kicks everyones ass...