Muffinman

[Cass]

Hi Erik!

Some interesting discussion here. I have a few points I would like to make.

I already touched on why I think women’s competition at worlds is important in my own blog, so I won’t get into that other than to say representation is important even if it’s not at the same level as the guys. I do agree that the standards of BAP, for example, shouldn’t be lowered to let women in. However, I also think that women do have some physical limitations when it comes to getting good at footbag. Specifically, I am almost certain that if I started taking testosterone that my footbag game would improve dramatically. Footbag requires a lot of power compared to, say, gymnastics. I am actually quite curious about how much of a role testosterone plays, but I don’t expect to ever find out. Of course it’s possible for women to get to BAP level, I’m just not sure that the playing field is as level as you make it out to be.

With regards to the BAP discussion, the most controversial thing about the induction at this years worlds that hasn’t even been mentioned. The BAP meeting in which Polini was inducted consisted of Jim, Lon and a number of BAP members that are no longer currently shredding at a high level by today's standards (old school dudes). Many of the highest level BAP members in attendance (Evan, Aleksi, Juho, Olav, and Nick Landes) were not even consulted. I found that the way this induction was carried out to be pretty interesting and to be honest I lost of lot of respect for the club over it. I used to want BAP but now I realise how little it actually means if the best in the world can so easily be excluded from the decision. No disrespect to Nick - he played very well at worlds and I think that even if he hadn’t got it this year it would be inevitable. I just think it’s crazy that a proper BAP meeting wasn’t even organized. I was also pretty surprised that Pawel and Taishi didn’t make it in.

Nice one-shots! That looks like a dope shred location! Let’s kick soon!

[boyle]

That's quite disappointed and kind of surprising. Like you said, it really devalues the idea of BAP - and you would think at least they would want to take a group photo or something like that. You've just mention five really top echelon plays, all have Worlds medals to their names, and most more than one, you would think that would means something in the selection process. Did it also happen after many people had left? I believe Nick got told on the phone on the way to the airport.

[Cass]

Yeah it happened at some point Saturday I guess? So some people left already but a lot were still around. I just remember reading Nicks Facebook post about it and hanging out with a lot of these guys who had no idea a BAP meeting even went down. Apparently they aren't even cool enough for BAP now

[C-Fan]

I've never been in an a BAP induction meeting (though I've been invited to a few), so I was a bit curious about the process of how they work. Do they require a quorum of a certain number of players to make a vote? I was also a bit surprised by the timing of the BAP announcement this year. Thanks for shedding some light on that Cass. I do remember in past years thinking it was a bit strange that old school BAP members were voting on current players, given that they're not as tied into the scene or in some cases may not understand the nuances/difficulty of current shred. I was a bit surprised by Nick's induction too, partially based on conversations I had with some current high level BAP members throughout the week, who said they thought he was still a year or two away. But I guess it sounds like those guys weren't involved in the induction decision, so that explains that.

[Muffinman]

Yeah, unfortunate about the BAP thing.
I was under the impression that they always all consulted together in a room, hence the ceremony aspect.

Been hearing a lot flack against the old schoolers that were in attendance. I know its against comments they made and not the individuals themselves. Something I said to Alex when he was telling me about the attitudes at Worlds about this was that I think I'm of a completely different mindset being from an older generation. Those guys were the ones that I looked up to when I first started playing and I really hold them on a pedestal it seems a lot more than players today who probably don't even know who they are. It's an interesting dichotomy. I was totally in agreement with most of what they said at the Legends panel:
-routines are stale and haven't changed
-circle etiquette
-freestyle is also a bit stale
-adds changed the game for the better overall

Those last two though have a bit of a conflict, though... While I think it would be rad to see more players throw down unique stuff like Bevier and Polini, it's probably mostly the add system that holds players back from that. Alex made some good points about that. Ripwalks are boring. I'm bored with most of my own game. Shred 30 is dumb. (Though I also made the point that doing rev whirls has helped me care about adds a lot less than otherwise...

The circle etiquette bit made me view old school videos in a whole new light, knowing that the players had to hold themselves back slightly to focus on consistency and always bust a run instead of repeatedly trying a single trick like 5 times in a row, which is how I (and most of us) play half of the time...

It's weird being from a generation where there are so few of us... I'm close to Ken, just 2 years behind... I can't really think of anyone else who's still active. James Risden maybe? Penske? I'm not sure when everyone started... Adam Keith I think. Who else, Ken?



Anyway, didn't really think any of that out before I wrote it.
But in conclusion, I still look up to those guys that everyone else is scoffing at, and it chafes me a bit.

[C-Fan]

It's weird being from a generation where there are so few of us... I'm close to Ken, just 2 years behind... I can't really think of anyone else who's still active. James Risden maybe? Penske? I'm not sure when everyone started... Adam Keith I think. Who else, Ken?

Lon and Penske most notably to me, since they're both still super good. Allan Haggett. Bevier still plays and is still good, but kinda not as into it as he was even a few years ago. Risden sounds like he's on the comeback. Other than that, you're right that not many of us remain.

[boyle]

I've never been in an a BAP induction meeting (though I've been invited to a few), so I was a bit curious about the process of how they work. Do they require a quorum of a certain number of players to make a vote? I was also a bit surprised by the timing of the BAP announcement this year. Thanks for shedding some light on that Cass. I do remember in past years thinking it was a bit strange that old school BAP members were voting on current players, given that they're not as tied into the scene or in some cases may not understand the nuances/difficulty of current shred. I was a bit surprised by Nick's induction too, partially based on conversations I had with some current high level BAP members throughout the week, who said they thought he was still a year or two away. But I guess it sounds like those guys weren't involved in the induction decision, so that explains that.

Why would they invite you...you didn't want to be in their little club From not being there and just watching the stream, my thoughts that a lot of it had come down to the post-finals circle, which had quite a few BAP players in it, but from the sounds of that a few of them weren't even involved. All seems a bit strange to me.

Speaking of "generations" - would you say there are distinct generations in the different parts of the world? Are there distinct generations for just North America. I wonder if there any spikes in new players, players improving, that kind of stuff, when Worlds is held in North America.

[LinoSphere]

It's weird being from a generation where there are so few of us... I'm close to Ken, just 2 years behind... I can't really think of anyone else who's still active. James Risden maybe? Penske? I'm not sure when everyone started... Adam Keith I think. Who else, Ken?

There still is a few people from that generation in Europe, like Jakob Wagner and me, we've also been playing for 18 years now. And Yves occasionally plays, too. And in Finland there is even older players, although hardly anyone still plays freestyle.

[Muffinman]

Wow. Amazing to see you posting, Matthias. I watched your videos growing up. I didn't know we'd been playing the same amount of time! In my opinion, Jakob should be BAP. He's that level. Or he was during Aleksi's Berlin Session video series.

And super cool to hear Yves is still playing. Another thing that I thought during the Legends panels is that Yves is maybe the only player who could probably rank super high in both freestyle and net. Bonkers.

[max]

Wow. Amazing to see you posting, Matthias. I watched your videos growing up. I didn't know we'd been playing the same amount of time! In my opinion, Jakob should be BAP. He's that level. Or he was during Aleksi's Berlin Session video series.

And super cool to hear Yves is still playing. Another thing that I thought during the Legends panels is that Yves is maybe the only player who could probably rank super high in both freestyle and net. Bonkers.

Him and Karim Daouk.. although no idea if he even kicks a freestyle bag much these days..

[boyle]

Wiktor just got a gold medal at Worlds in Mixed Doubles, he was pretty high in the rankings in the Open Doubles as well, though he hasn't had the super highs in Open Freestyle (though of course he has in the doubles).

I haven't watched the legends panel yet, will have to set some time aside to see it. I enjoyed the other couple of panels.

[Asmus]

Arthur Ledain is a good routine player as well.

[Muffinman]

Ooh, hey Max! Do you still play?



So I've never hit 10 fearless. I think my record is 6?
Can you guys help me think of doable 5 adds and/or combos? Obviously PWF (paradox-whirl-free) It's a bit trickier because a lot of my 5s end up being the equivalent of 6s with whips. I've plotted out potential 10 fearless combos before, but have never had the health to really practice in any capacity. I'm gonna see if I can try in a handful of sessions. I broke down some potential combos and tricks that I thought of off the top of my head. Can you recommend any other tricks that I'm not thinking of that are kinda my style, and that are easily linkable?

POTENTIAL FEARLESS COMBOS:
backside blur > pixie paradon > rev whirlygig >
rev whirlygig > backside blur > pixie paradon >
rev mullet > spin duck butt REP

rev whirlygig x2 >
spin duck mirage > duck symp whip > spin duck butt > rev mullet REP
(This is the combo I did 6 contacts of, starting after the rev whirlygigs -- I think it's in a video somewhere)

rev whirlygig x2 >
spin duck mirage > duck symp whip > duck ps mirage > dive symp whip REP



5S CLIP TO TOE:
-ducking ps mirage
-spin duck mirage
-backside blur
-fog/bed

5S CLIP TO CLIP:
-rev whirlygig
-rev mullet/dive
-rev whirlwind/gyro
-blurriest/blurrier
-spin duck butt/gyro
-spin duck osis/gyro

5S TOE TO CLIP:
-phoenix
-pixie paradon
-duck symp whip/dive
-pixie symp whip

[boats]

How are motions for you? I find that to be the easiest 5 for me. I understand that every footbager is made different though...

I have only hit fearless links, but never three 5's in a row. Thank you for writing out some 5's. I think I can use ducking ps mirage to get a 3 trick fearless combo!!! I never thought of using that trick. My first sick 3 fearless will probs be spinning ducking butterfly > ducking ps mirage > far motion. Thanks again dude!!!

[acxel22]

how about mobius rev mullet ducking ps mirage

[Muffinman]

Yikes, too hard! Playing out of mobius is really hard for me, which is why I left it off. I could probably do that combo, but not amongst 10 other like tricks! Also I'm less consistent at mobius than these others I think. But thanks for the reply

Thanks Boats. Ducking PS mirage was my first 5 actually
Motions are like non-existent for me, though that's actually something that I was planning to work on next. I'm happy to hit it BSOS or like BS per session. I think my first fearless combo was blurry whirl x2 > ps whirl x2, which was obviously forever ago since I haven't whirled in ages. Probably 2003 or something?

Glad my list helped you! Let me know if you think of others. But you're right, my 5s are way different than most people's, even after the whips...

[Tjuggles]

It's weird being from a generation where there are so few of us... I'm close to Ken, just 2 years behind... I can't really think of anyone else who's still active. James Risden maybe? Penske? I'm not sure when everyone started... Adam Keith I think. Who else, Ken?

Lon and Penske most notably to me, since they're both still super good. Allan Haggett. Bevier still plays and is still good, but kinda not as into it as he was even a few years ago. Risden sounds like he's on the comeback. Other than that, you're right that not many of us remain.

For what it's worth, I 'officially' started freestyle, raised by GFSmoothie, in 2000 or 2001. I remember maybe linking a couple of tricks in highschool, late 90s which is why I say I officially started in 2000-ish. First tourney was in 2002.

[Muffinman]

Yeah, I keep remembering others that started around the same time-ish and are still playing too...

Fun session with Mathieu, Alex, Mike, and Cassy today. been super sick for the past 1.5 weeks and was happy I could even play at all. Mathieu hit vortex > vertigo (also, maybe void > vertigo?) I footed spinning mobius second try! Wasn't expecting to even come close, but gave it a shot. Haha. Going to be trying that trick next session when I'm actually feeling okay! Felt magical <3 I remember trying that trick for the first time at Worlds 2008 -- Ken requested it, but I was nowhere close. I think that and alpine mobius are maybe like my dream tricks...

Really fun day. Great to see everyone

[C-Fan]

Yeah, spinning mobius would be sick. Definitely one of my dream tricks, so makes sense I requested it almost 10 years back. Alpine mobius is a lot easier. If you haven't hit it yet, I bet you can. Try and film these; I'd love to see them!

[boyle]

Spinning mobius would be crazy. Do you have a particular time and place that you play at there in Toronto? I have a friend who is living there for another couple of months, he got into kicking for a little while but doesn't really do it any more, but it would be cool if he could swing by a session.