Nic, the problem with the above is that in footbag you have up to seven tries to hit your combo. If you don't seal it and hit it clean ONCE out of seven attempts, then you should not have any merit attributed to your combo -- you did NOT hit it. I mean, in online comp, you have unlimited tries!!! Why would you enter a combo you didn't seal?!
I think maybe a good solution to the sealing debate is to require a footbag move to seal the combo -- a kick, toe stall, clipper, whatever. At least that way you know that the ending move was strong enough to play out of. This eliminates the problem of the bag hitting you or you having to dive for the bag since if either of those occurred, then you clearly didn't hit the combo strongly enough.
Just a thought.
Is catching necessary for sick 3?
I don't know why somebody would enter a combo without executing it as well as they can, but there are always factors such as time which could comprimise somebody's entry.Nagasake wrote:Nic, the problem with the above is that in footbag you have up to seven tries to hit your combo. If you don't seal it and hit it clean ONCE out of seven attempts, then you should not have any merit attributed to your combo -- you did NOT hit it. I mean, in online comp, you have unlimited tries!!! Why would you enter a combo you didn't seal?!
What you just said about the 7 tries to hit something and seal it is exactly what I don't agree with. Like I said in my example previously, it is stupid to have someone hit montage > whirlwind > montage rake but miss the hand catch or the one of the moves losing to someone who hit butterfly > pdx mirage > dlo perfectly. The first combo is harder even with a 'the' dex and no hand catch, thus it should be ranked higher.
In routine, if you drop, your whole routine isn't disqualified, you just lose some marks for execution. In shred30 if you drop you are not disqualified, you are just disadvantaged slightly.
In both these events, a player who is vastly better will always win even if he makes mistakes, it should be the same for sick3, the better player should win.
Nic, montage on its own is harder than butterfly>pdx mirage>dlo executed perfectly. Yet, montage is not a sick 3. The same applies to move>move>move with thes and no seal. It may be harder than combo x, and certainly it can be established that the player is better since he was able to make it to that point in the combo, but it was NOT a sick 3. A move that is 'the'd is not hit. There is no debate.
In response to the desire for more lenience for screwing up in sick 3 -- that's what the multiple attempts for. You need to approach the event with back-up combos in mind and different approaches to hitting a big combo in case something doesn't work out. If after you hit your safety combo you can't muster your biggest combo, that would be the equivalent of dropping a few times in shred 30. You still come out all right, but you didn't acheive your ultimate goal in competing. If you try your biggest combo without abandon and fail that would be the same as attempting a shred 30 and dropping excessively and scoring lowly due to poor planning.
I understand where you're coming from, but what you're proposing isn't currently how most sick 3's work, as far as I know. (correct me if I'm wrong -- I know that's how we do it in Seattle and every other jam I've attended. What's more, I've never seen a video of a placing big 3 where the contender didn't seal the combo)
Blah, starting to ramble.
Any thoughts about what I suggested as to seals?
In response to the desire for more lenience for screwing up in sick 3 -- that's what the multiple attempts for. You need to approach the event with back-up combos in mind and different approaches to hitting a big combo in case something doesn't work out. If after you hit your safety combo you can't muster your biggest combo, that would be the equivalent of dropping a few times in shred 30. You still come out all right, but you didn't acheive your ultimate goal in competing. If you try your biggest combo without abandon and fail that would be the same as attempting a shred 30 and dropping excessively and scoring lowly due to poor planning.
I understand where you're coming from, but what you're proposing isn't currently how most sick 3's work, as far as I know. (correct me if I'm wrong -- I know that's how we do it in Seattle and every other jam I've attended. What's more, I've never seen a video of a placing big 3 where the contender didn't seal the combo)
Blah, starting to ramble.
Any thoughts about what I suggested as to seals?
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funklovesfootbag
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shredzilla
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yeah I feel hand catch is appropriate, though 2 add seal is fine, as long as it's clean
edit: I guess I really don't like the 4th move seal, and that's why I said it had to be clean. If someone sealed something with an osis that just rolled off and hit the ground, that would be poor presentation IMO. Hand catch seems to be the best form of presentation.
edit: I guess I really don't like the 4th move seal, and that's why I said it had to be clean. If someone sealed something with an osis that just rolled off and hit the ground, that would be poor presentation IMO. Hand catch seems to be the best form of presentation.
Last edited by shredzilla on 07 Apr 2006 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
J. Chris "Thread-killer" Miller
If you change up the rules, people will practice differently.
I think a hand catch is good - otherwise you're not hitting a sick 3 - you're hitting a sick 4. The rules of sick 3 are you have to hit 3 moves in a row. In fact I'd say that ideally players would be required to finish sick 3s with a handcatch. A good judge would certainly not take into account the 4th move at all since doing so would mean players are being judged for more outside of the requirement - and we'd end up seeing players hitting genuine sick 4s because it would give them a better chance of winning - that would be ridiculous. With a perfectly executed combo - the set out of the last move should be straight up and the player should be perfectly balanced and in control - it shouldn't matter at all what happens after that stage - if they hit a down time nemesis out or drop the handcatch - neither has any relevance on the sick 3 that they've hit. I think handcatching is good because it shows some control out of the set and a good finish. Usually in freestyle a move looks something like this: dex>bod>dex>del - ie. the move finishes on the delay - anything after that delay is not that move but the next one.
In regard to "the" moves - the suggested one of Nic's is a good example.
Montage>whirlwind>"the" montage rake
vs
butterfly>pdx mirage>dlo
If you hit a "the" move it means you didn't actually hit that move at all. Now I know there has been some arguement about what it should count as and there certainly isn't any consensus on this or an official decision by the IFC. However personally I believe that a "the" move cannot be downgraded to whatever it would have been without the "the" component. Sick 3 really should be judged on which combination is technically hardest following the rules. Things like variety and creativity are part of what makes a combo harder than another but they shouldn't be seperate criteria - the name tells you the definition of the event - "Sick 3" - as in the most hardcore 3 moves - as in the most technically difficult 3 moves. Not 4 moves and not 2 moves. I would say that montage>whirlwind>"the" montage rake is not three moves but 2. A "the" move is not a move at all - it's a mistake.
There are no official IFPA rules for how sick 3 competitions are judged. There are official Australian rules that are as follows:
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5 Technical Trick Combination
5.1 Rules:
Technical trick combination is a technical event. Each competitor is given a limited number of attempts to hit a move or combination of a set amount of tricks. It is recommend that 7 attempts be given and the number of moves be 3, however number of attempts and moves required is at the discretion of the tournament director or head judge.
5.2 Combinations:
A combination must be sealed with a controlled hand catch or other movement to suggest that the competitor has control of the bag. If a competitor drops a hand catch the judges can decide to award the combination if the bag was still under control, however if a competitor is forced to lunge to catch the bag the combination can be discounted at the judges discretion. Should a player hit more moves than are required for the event any moves hit after the required amount of moves are void. Any moves hit at the start of the combination that are deemed insignificant by the judges are not counted in the combination.
5.3 Judging Scores:
The judges shall judge the event on one criterion:
Technical merit:
Technical merit refers to trick difficulty, trick variety, trick execution, and technical form.
Each judge shall award a score from 0 to 6 for the criterion taking into account the following guidelines:
Technical merit:
0.0 = extremely poor
1.0 = poor
2.0 = weak
3.0 = reasonable
4.0 = good
5.0 = very good
6.0 = perfect
5.4 Results:
Once a competitor has completed their routine the individual scores from each judge are added together. In the event of there being 5 or more judges on the panel the highest and lowest scores are removed before the final score is worked out. The competitors are ranked from highest total score to lowest total score.
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However I would personally like to see the running of the event changed so that it more accurately followed other similar styled events in other sports. The significant change I would make is that all attempts would get a score regardless of if the player caught the bag or not for their execution. So a combo like butterfly>pdx mirage>dlo executed perfectly would get a perfect score while a combo like montage>whirlwind>the montage rake would get a significantly lower score. However you'd then multiply the score by the set degree of difficulty score - which would be loosely based around the add system. All combos would have to be presented to the judges before the attempts were made. Competitors would be given a set amount of attempts but also a set amount of rounds - so say 7 attempts and 3 rounds. Each of the 7 attempts could only be for the one combo and the best score would be counted. A player wouldn't have to use all 7 attempts if they scored high enough on their earlier attemtps. You'd have multiple judges and the top and bottom score would be discounted - the rest would be totalled. Players would only be allowed to attempt moves that were accredited by the official body (ie. the ifc) - so attempting a combo which didn't already have an allocated degree of difficulty would not be allowed. - I see this as a serious contentious issue - however I'd point out that in every single olympic standard sport they use the same system - snowboarding, ariel ski jumping, diving, gymnastics etc. A competitor can only hit moves/tricks that are approved by the sports governing body - which incidentally is often allowing new tricks as they are hit.
I would definitely like to see a direction in competition rules towards olympic standard systems.
Sorry if this post was a little confusing.
In regard to "the" moves - the suggested one of Nic's is a good example.
Montage>whirlwind>"the" montage rake
vs
butterfly>pdx mirage>dlo
If you hit a "the" move it means you didn't actually hit that move at all. Now I know there has been some arguement about what it should count as and there certainly isn't any consensus on this or an official decision by the IFC. However personally I believe that a "the" move cannot be downgraded to whatever it would have been without the "the" component. Sick 3 really should be judged on which combination is technically hardest following the rules. Things like variety and creativity are part of what makes a combo harder than another but they shouldn't be seperate criteria - the name tells you the definition of the event - "Sick 3" - as in the most hardcore 3 moves - as in the most technically difficult 3 moves. Not 4 moves and not 2 moves. I would say that montage>whirlwind>"the" montage rake is not three moves but 2. A "the" move is not a move at all - it's a mistake.
There are no official IFPA rules for how sick 3 competitions are judged. There are official Australian rules that are as follows:
--------------
5 Technical Trick Combination
5.1 Rules:
Technical trick combination is a technical event. Each competitor is given a limited number of attempts to hit a move or combination of a set amount of tricks. It is recommend that 7 attempts be given and the number of moves be 3, however number of attempts and moves required is at the discretion of the tournament director or head judge.
5.2 Combinations:
A combination must be sealed with a controlled hand catch or other movement to suggest that the competitor has control of the bag. If a competitor drops a hand catch the judges can decide to award the combination if the bag was still under control, however if a competitor is forced to lunge to catch the bag the combination can be discounted at the judges discretion. Should a player hit more moves than are required for the event any moves hit after the required amount of moves are void. Any moves hit at the start of the combination that are deemed insignificant by the judges are not counted in the combination.
5.3 Judging Scores:
The judges shall judge the event on one criterion:
Technical merit:
Technical merit refers to trick difficulty, trick variety, trick execution, and technical form.
Each judge shall award a score from 0 to 6 for the criterion taking into account the following guidelines:
Technical merit:
0.0 = extremely poor
1.0 = poor
2.0 = weak
3.0 = reasonable
4.0 = good
5.0 = very good
6.0 = perfect
5.4 Results:
Once a competitor has completed their routine the individual scores from each judge are added together. In the event of there being 5 or more judges on the panel the highest and lowest scores are removed before the final score is worked out. The competitors are ranked from highest total score to lowest total score.
--------------
However I would personally like to see the running of the event changed so that it more accurately followed other similar styled events in other sports. The significant change I would make is that all attempts would get a score regardless of if the player caught the bag or not for their execution. So a combo like butterfly>pdx mirage>dlo executed perfectly would get a perfect score while a combo like montage>whirlwind>the montage rake would get a significantly lower score. However you'd then multiply the score by the set degree of difficulty score - which would be loosely based around the add system. All combos would have to be presented to the judges before the attempts were made. Competitors would be given a set amount of attempts but also a set amount of rounds - so say 7 attempts and 3 rounds. Each of the 7 attempts could only be for the one combo and the best score would be counted. A player wouldn't have to use all 7 attempts if they scored high enough on their earlier attemtps. You'd have multiple judges and the top and bottom score would be discounted - the rest would be totalled. Players would only be allowed to attempt moves that were accredited by the official body (ie. the ifc) - so attempting a combo which didn't already have an allocated degree of difficulty would not be allowed. - I see this as a serious contentious issue - however I'd point out that in every single olympic standard sport they use the same system - snowboarding, ariel ski jumping, diving, gymnastics etc. A competitor can only hit moves/tricks that are approved by the sports governing body - which incidentally is often allowing new tricks as they are hit.
I would definitely like to see a direction in competition rules towards olympic standard systems.
Sorry if this post was a little confusing.
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crazylegs32
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