1st Quarter Online Competition Official Release! All Video's

[Jeremy]

So these results were based on some kind of numerical formulae? If so can you post up the actual numbers?


If you're happy to answer more questions can you please answer this one, that I've asked 2 times already (this is the third time I'm asking).

Did you think Josh, Dmitry and Vitaliy's moves were 'the' or did you deem that they also "got a little bit of the dex?" If you did think they were 'the' why did they beat somebody who hit a move cleanly?

What penalty does a 'the' trick constitute with your formulae?

I'm also curious to know what you mean by Byrin "got a very tiny bit of the dex." You mean in a trick where you are supposed to go around the bag, going around it a 'very tiny bit' still counts as dex?

[Matt K]

Sorry Jeremy, I wasn't avoiding it, I promise!

Josh, Dmitry, and Vitaliy's moves all had the dexes, but their difficulty ratings combined with their execution scores (albeit lowered) were more than say a pretty clean mind bender.

We rank every dex attempted (except in special cases where it is just mindless flailing, where we would go back and re-rank the trick itself), and if any of those are the/thin, that's accounted for, and the score is lowered.

Here's the results if every trick was executed perfectly:

Stepping Mofly
Symp Bubba Motion
Whirlygig Swirl
Pixie Flurry/Alpine Scorpion's Tail
Sailing Gyro Mirage
Alpine Fairy Paradon
Mobius Screw
Zulu Blender
Mind Bender


We're still working on it, so yes, there are some bugs. Keep em coming if you've got any.

[Jeremy]

So did you use a numerical formulae? Can we see the actual numbers?


I think you're difficulty ratings are completely off the mark. How did you decide them? I've hit almost all the moves that were in this, and I'd rank them something like this;


1. Symp Bubba Motion

(space to represent how much harder this move would be if hit cleanly than anything else).

2. Pixie Flurry

3. Stepping mo fly
4. Sailing gyro mirage (and I'm being a little conservative here - as far as I know only Vasek and I have ever hit this).

5. Whirlygig swirl

6. Fairy ducking paradon
7. Alpine scorpion's tail

8. Zulu Blender
9. Mobiusscrew

10. Mind Bender


Note in particular the massive difference in my rating between pixie flurry and alpine scorpion's tail. Those moves are no where near the same difficulty.

[Matt K]

Zac and I aren't ready to release numbers yet, but the way a move's difficulty is calculated is component based, with each component weighted differently. We know it's not perfect, but we tweak it pretty often, and this is certainly helping, and are striving for the most accuracy we can get.

[Jeremy]

You can't have "great execution and form" if you hit a trick 'the.' Stepping mo-fly is clearly 'the' - not "thin."


I'm still curious to know why moves like symp bubba motion and alpine scorpion's tail in particular finished higher than mind bender, given the execution.

When you say you rated "difficulty" first - was that just the difficulty of the trick in general, or did you actually look at what the person did? If you did the latter did you ask how difficult it would be hit those tricks 'the', or did you think they were clean?

You say you downgraded the whirlygig swirl "quite a bit" yet it finished third. How far did you downgrade it and where would it have otherwise finished if you didn't think it "could have been 'the'" ?

I think we just fundamentally disagree (flashbacks to presidential race...) on how tricks should be ranked. Our difficulty system is objective. Each separate component has a score (similar to ADDs, but much more sophisticated). Then we ranked execution by deducting points (which there are guidelines and categories for). These two things gave us a final score. It just so happens that Whirlygig Swirl is a hard trick, and the camera angle makes it difficult to tell if the whirl was thin or the. Maybe we were slightly unfair to Ken, but it was unintentional. You still beat him.

Alpine Scorpion's Tail and Symp Bubba Motion are both a lot harder than Mind Bender. That's the only explanation as to why they're ranked higher.

Also, if you saw Byrin do Stepping Mofly without a bag like that, you would say that he had good form and execution. The only problem is the last dex, which is either very thin or the. It doesn't matter that much in the overall rankings.

Missed this post.

In any competition you need to explain the rules fully before the competition starts. If you're judging based on a system like the add system then obviously knowing that changes what moves people would have attempted. For example I'm sure a move like Irish Cream would rate higher than my move, even though it's similar *but easier.*

If you're going to use a new system this really should have been explained before the competition. It makes the results meaningless because I'm sure everybody assumed the event would be judged normally. Judges have no right to enforce their own personal views about anything. They need to be following the guidelines, standards, and expectations for the competition. Believe me, I have hundreds of things I'd like to be done differently in competitions and preferences that I know are not in line with the community expectations, and so I try my hardest to avoid judging based on these. I'm not perfect, no doubt my decisions are still influenced in some way by them, but I certainly don't take it upon myself to enforce my own views onto the competitors when I have no authority to do so (although I do have that authority within the IFC, there's obviously the check there of having to convince other people that I'm right, and that authority clearly doesn't carry over to me judging events).

[Zac Miley]

The point is that there are no guidelines for Sick 1 or Sick 3. We're making them. We didn't just create this in a week and start judging shit with it. We judged NYJ in Chicago using this and used it for the last online competitions.

I shouldn't have said our system is similar to the ADD system. It's not except for the fact that there are numbers.

No, we aren't releasing numbers yet.

Also, I generally agree with your difficulty rankings Jeremy. We're close, but not perfect.

[Jeremy]

There are guidelines for sick 1/3 competitions. They might not be official with the IFPA yet, although they probably will be after this worlds.

Sick 3

3a. Tournament Procedures.

Each competitor will be given 7 attempts to complete a three move combo. An attempt is deemed to be any attempt at a move apart from a toe stall, inside stall and clipper stall.
Competitors will be seeded by the judges in advance of the competition and will perform in the order designated by that seeding. Note that the seeding for Sick 3 may differ from the seeding for other events and it up to competitors to know the order of performance. Competitors must wait until the head judge signals that the judges are ready before making an attempt. This is required for all attempts regardless of whether or not the previous attempt was completed or not. Any attempts made while the judges are not ready will be counted as an attempt but will not be scored. Competitors may keep warm between attempts but may not do so by undertaking any moves that may constitute an attempt as defined above.
Judges will announce the number of the attempt before signaling for the competitor to proceed.
Once a competitor has been given the signal to make an attempt they must do so promptly or may be given a warning by the judges. Subsequent delay may result in immediate disqualification.
Only completed combos will be judged, and judges will use their discretion as to what constitutes a completed combo. Competitors are not required to seal combos in any particular manner and judges will decide whether or not three moves constituting a combo have been completed.

3b. Scoring.

Each completed combo is to be given a score out of 6 by each judge. Scores relate to technical difficulty, originality, variety and creativity. Players will be awarded the score of their highest scoring combo from each judge, these scores will be added together and competitors will be ranked from the highest score to the lowest. In the result of a tie, the second highest scoring combos will be used to decide the placing. Should players still be tied, they will be placed as such.

3c. Scoring Procedures.

Technical difficulty – The harder the tricks, links and combos, the higher the score. This is the major component accounting for roughly 50% of the score.
Variety – how many various components are covered in the combo? Keep in mind the differing degrees of variety (see the scoring procedures for Routines). The greater the variety the higher the score. This is roughly 30% of the score.
Originality, and creativity – Competitors who go beyond common moves, links and combos will be given a higher score. To a degree this has to do with fashion and difficulty, but in general, there are certain moves, components, links and combos that are more common than others. Blurry whirl>ps whirl is more common (and more difficult – these two scoring areas may overlap) than ps whirl> Blurry whirl. Ina way common isn’t really the right word – perhaps inventive is better, the point being that its about linking less obvious tricks and components in terms not only of footbag fashion, but also in terms of the way in which some moves are more obviously (and easily, again noting the connection between these elements of the scoring) connected than others. This constitutes roughly 20% of the score.

504.05. Limited Technical Combination Competition:
Competitors are given a limited number of attempts (typically 7) to perform a combo of a set amount of freestyle moves linked together. Players are judged on technical ability. The details of judging can be found in Article 5, section 507.

507 Limited Technical Combination Competition

507.01. Judges:
A panel of judges evaluates each routine. The judges are composed of
non competitors deemed suitable by the tournament director. Each
judge shall be independent of the other judges and shall not discuss
decisions until after the results have been submitted. The desired
amount of judges is 4 to 6.

507.02. Combinations:
A combination must be sealed with a controlled hand catch or other
movement to suggest that the player has control of the bag. If a
player drops a hand catch the judges can decide to award the
combination if the bag was still under control, however if a player is
forced to lunge to catch the bag the combo is void. Should a player
hit more moves than are required for the event any moves hit after the
required amount of moves are void. Any moves hit at the start of the
combination that are deemed insignificant by the judges are not
counted in the combination.


507.02. Judging Scores:
The judges shall judge the event on one criterion:

Technical merit:
Technical merit refers to trick difficulty, trick variety, trick
execution, and technical form.

Each judge shall award a score from 0 to 6 for the criterion taking
into account the following guidelines:


Technical merit:
0.0 = extremely poor
1.0 = poor
2.0 = weak
3.0 = reasonable
4.0 = good
5.0 = very good
6.0 = perfect

507.03. Ranking players:
Each player shall be ranked the criterion with the player receiving
the highest score for the criterion being placed in first position
etc. by each individual judge. The rank position given by each judge
will then be totalled together to give each player a final score.
Players are then ranked from lowest score to highest score. The
player with the lowest score is awarded first place.

In the result of a tie the individual judging ranks are analysed and
the player with the highest quantity of ranks at the lowest value of
the tied player shall be awarded the higher finish of the tied
players. Players with identical rank scores shall be mutually be
awarded the position.

These are the official rules/judging system for Australia, as well as the ones used at most footbag events and that hopefully the IFC will be voting on at worlds (possibly with amendments, as I've just quoted the draft (the two second quotes) that I wrote and sent to the IFC - I think there's already been a bit of editing to the text, but the actual rules and judging systems will remain the same as at this stage we're merely trying to reflect how these events are actually judged, rather than impose any changes).


I spoke with Matt on Facebook about this and I think it's admirable that you're trying to do this, and that the online comps are a good place to be testing it (if you let the competitors know how the system works first), however based on your results it doesn't seem like your system is that accurate and I think you'll have a very hard time convincing other players, and more importantly the freestylers within the IFC (essentially me, Dan Ednie, Wiktor Debski and Steve Goldberg) if you don't significantly change the way you deal with 'the' tricks. The thing about making rules/laws is that it really only matters a tiny bit what your opinions are, but matters a lot more what everybody else's are. That's why you shouldn't take politicians statements at face value - because they have the choice of compromising their values or being completely ineffective. Even if you're right about 'the' tricks, unless you can mount a far more convincing argument than you have already, it simply means you're going to fail with your project.

[TheLast]

keep talking guys. I want 5 pages, 5.

[Jazzkid]

[Jazzkid]

I have sealed page 5.

oops !!

Thats ok. sealed is a vague term in this topic anyway

If I would have known that trick difficulty mattered that much more than execution , I would have entered me "hitting" a pulled threw surging, the ducking, not so symposium, the whirling , the swirling clipper and KICKED ALL OF YOUR ASSES.

[Jeremy]

Why didn't you? Rookie error.

[Matt K]

Sick Link:

1. Jeremy - Triage>Witch Doctor
2. Byrin - Double Spinning Osis>Big Apple
3. Mark - Ripped Warrior>Blurry Torque
4. Sergey - Blur>Legbeater
5. John- Symp Whirl>Far Symp. Rev. Whirl
6. Viktor - Illusion Symp. Butterfly>Torque
7. Josh - Ripwalk>Spinning Clipper
8. Pavel - Stepping Clipper>Spinning Clipper
9. Adrian - Gimpy Chest Stall>Legover


Viktor's was entered as Motion, but that's how we rated it.

[Zac Miley]

Open Sick 3 rankings:

1. Byrin (Atom Bomb>Atomic Torque>Locomotion)
2. Mark (Mobius>P Torque>Far Motion)
3. Vitaliy (Ducking P Flail>Ducking Symp Mirage>Ducking Symp Whirl)
4. Kim (Blurriest>Tomahawk>PS Whirl)
5. Sergey (Toe Barrage>Toe Whirl>Far Symp Rev Whirl)
6. John Goode (Dimwalk>PS Mirage>Paradon)
7. Tamas Papp (Smear>DLO>Dimwalk)
8. Pavel (Blur>ss Butter>Spin PDX Mirage)
9. Josh (Ripwalk>Osis>P Mirage)

Byrin destroyed everyone by like 8 points. 2 through 4 were really close.

We are considering revisions to our deduction and ranking system Jeremy, we'll have to talk to you about it.

[Jeremy]

Looking forward to it. The sick 3 results look good, although I can't really remember the video. The difference between 3 and 4 is tiny and hard to judge.

I'm a little surprised I beat Byrin in sick 2 - I think his combo is a lot harder, as are the individual moves. I did think he paused on the stall between the moves for too long, but I didn't think it was long enough for me to beat him. Still I thought my combo was good so I'm grateful for the first place result

[TheLast]

remember 5 pages.

[g00d33]

And now you only need like 5 more posts for 5 pages

[Mike V]

Just helping get you to a page five.