Guess who invented the name?krawallier wrote: jorden - would have ranked higher with a more distinct dyno. good name
June 2005 Sick One and Sick Three Events - Voting Closed
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He henry calm down buddy 
I can agree with nic on that. For me I voted moves that I personally find difficult. Blurry drifter is just hard. There is no way I could do that or attempt it. But I mean of course all of these moves are sick and including sick three. I think everyone has there own opinions as to what is hard and not. I could say mine was difficult but then I would be lying
And I am sure that moves that were hit were easier for those people than others. There is no such thing as biast voting in footbag 
I can agree with nic on that. For me I voted moves that I personally find difficult. Blurry drifter is just hard. There is no way I could do that or attempt it. But I mean of course all of these moves are sick and including sick three. I think everyone has there own opinions as to what is hard and not. I could say mine was difficult but then I would be lying
And I am sure that moves that were hit were easier for those people than others. There is no such thing as biast voting in footbag -
shreddaily
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I respectfuly disagree. When slowmoed and pause you can see the second dex begins OUTSIDE the knee. He then proceeds to lift his knee and dexing leg ABOVE the bag, than catches. This is the EXACT definition of a dyno. A refraction starts with the bag on the inside of the knee and the leg never gets above the bag.Jeremy wrote:8. Jorden Moir.
This doesn't end in a torque screw at all, but rather a torquing refraction
Out of curiosity, what do you think of Honzas barroque screw Mr O wheel?
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Thread votes: 24
Voting page votes: 18
Total: 42
Ok me and Travis are working on some mysql code that can calculate the rankings automatically, because it would take litterally hours and hours to do it manually. If we havent got something together by tonight or 2morrow night i'll do it manually anyway
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Gosh I did'nt expect 42 votes! Last month we had 28 votes... I guess the new voting pages are working! Thanks Travis!
Please continue to comment and vote if you have'nt done so yet! Voting wont be closed for atleast another week.
-Note to Henry: There where no pity votes involved, I have had longer than you to think about my votes so maybe they seem overanalized, but hitting the biggestmove at the end is almost always easier than start or middle. In my votes for myself I attempted to explain why I hit what I did and which parts of it where hard... don't see how that's a 'pity vote'.
We are all intitled to our own opinions and that is mine, the reason I put surge below blurry drifter is because a. It looks live an easy move for Aaron, and b. If you have a surging set as good as his it is'nt hard to peel a mirage out of it and c. It's a 5 based on pdx mirage, mine is a 5 based on pdx drifter.
Perhaps you should PM me if your not happy with my votes next time.
Voting page votes: 18
Total: 42
Ok me and Travis are working on some mysql code that can calculate the rankings automatically, because it would take litterally hours and hours to do it manually. If we havent got something together by tonight or 2morrow night i'll do it manually anyway
.Gosh I did'nt expect 42 votes! Last month we had 28 votes... I guess the new voting pages are working! Thanks Travis!
Please continue to comment and vote if you have'nt done so yet! Voting wont be closed for atleast another week
.-Note to Henry: There where no pity votes involved, I have had longer than you to think about my votes so maybe they seem overanalized, but hitting the biggestmove at the end is almost always easier than start or middle. In my votes for myself I attempted to explain why I hit what I did and which parts of it where hard... don't see how that's a 'pity vote'.
We are all intitled to our own opinions and that is mine, the reason I put surge below blurry drifter is because a. It looks live an easy move for Aaron, and b. If you have a surging set as good as his it is'nt hard to peel a mirage out of it and c. It's a 5 based on pdx mirage, mine is a 5 based on pdx drifter.
Perhaps you should PM me if your not happy with my votes next time.
Hey Nic, I only voted on this page, I didn`t vote on the scroll down screen. Is that OK? Will my vote still be counted even if I didn`t use the special page? Should I go do that now?
Other "big tricks" are hard to play out of, like superfly or mullet for example, in which case they are indeed easiest at the end of a combo. Personally, I think that the hardest (and therefore rarest) place to put the biggest trick, would be in the middle of a combo, because you have to play into it with a trick thats controlled enough to set the middle trick, and you have to play out of it with enough control to hit the last trick. Like I said before, it`s always case specific, so your generalization of "hitting the biggest trick at the end is usually the easiest" is hard to defend.
So whether or not Surge is easy for Aaron doesn`t matter. All that matters is that he hit surge, and hit it cleanly. Is surge a harder/sicker move than blurry drifter in the abstract? That is for the judges to decide. Maybe aesthetically blurry drifter looks cooler. If thats your logic, I respect that. But the question of whether surge is "easy" or not for Aaron should have no bearing on your vote.
That made no sense to me. Surge is a 5 add move where the hard part comes first. Blurry drifter is a 5 add move where the hard part comes second. Based on your logic, ps whirl beats janiwalker, because janiwalker would be "a 5 based on butterfly" whereas ps whirl is "a 5 based on paradox symposium whirl."
That`s a very hard statement to defend, in my opinion. It entirely depends on the moves in question. Some "big moves" are hard to set, so it is easiest to put them first. Furious tricks, for example, are very rare in the middle of sick 3s, but you see them as the first trick a bunch, because its easier to focus on the set off a clipper, instead of off another trick. In the case of furious tricks, "hitting the biggest move at the end" is way harder than in the start or middle.BalinorNZ wrote: but hitting the biggestmove at the end is almost always easier than start or middle.]
Other "big tricks" are hard to play out of, like superfly or mullet for example, in which case they are indeed easiest at the end of a combo. Personally, I think that the hardest (and therefore rarest) place to put the biggest trick, would be in the middle of a combo, because you have to play into it with a trick thats controlled enough to set the middle trick, and you have to play out of it with enough control to hit the last trick. Like I said before, it`s always case specific, so your generalization of "hitting the biggest trick at the end is usually the easiest" is hard to defend.
In a Sick3 contest, I always vote based on the move, not the player. If a tiltless beginner entered ripwalk in the contest, that would obviously show a lot of effort on his part, and I would give him props. If Vasek entered the same contest and hit whirlwind, I wouldn`t give him props, because whirlwind is such an easy trick for him. Even so, mentally I would have to look at the contest as "ripwalk vs whirlwind," not "beginner-who-tried-superhard vs lazy-pro-who-didnt-try." Vasek would win the contest, even though the other guy tried harder.BalinorNZ wrote: the reason I put surge below blurry drifter is because a. It looks live an easy move for Aaron, and b. If you have a surging set as good as his it is'nt hard to peel a mirage out of it and c. It's a 5 based on pdx mirage, mine is a 5 based on pdx drifter.
]
So whether or not Surge is easy for Aaron doesn`t matter. All that matters is that he hit surge, and hit it cleanly. Is surge a harder/sicker move than blurry drifter in the abstract? That is for the judges to decide. Maybe aesthetically blurry drifter looks cooler. If thats your logic, I respect that. But the question of whether surge is "easy" or not for Aaron should have no bearing on your vote.
BalinorNZ wrote:
It's a 5 based on pdx mirage, mine is a 5 based on pdx drifter.
]
That made no sense to me. Surge is a 5 add move where the hard part comes first. Blurry drifter is a 5 add move where the hard part comes second. Based on your logic, ps whirl beats janiwalker, because janiwalker would be "a 5 based on butterfly" whereas ps whirl is "a 5 based on paradox symposium whirl." C-Fan wrote:In a Sick3 contest, I always vote based on the move, not the player. If a tiltless beginner entered ripwalk in the contest, that would obviously show a lot of effort on his part, and I would give him props. If Vasek entered the same contest and hit whirlwind, I wouldn`t give him props, because whirlwind is such an easy trick for him. Even so, mentally I would have to look at the contest as "ripwalk vs whirlwind," not "beginner-who-tried-superhard vs lazy-pro-who-didnt-try." Vasek would win the contest, even though the other guy tried harder.BalinorNZ wrote: the reason I put surge below blurry drifter is because a. It looks live an easy move for Aaron, and b. If you have a surging set as good as his it is'nt hard to peel a mirage out of it and c. It's a 5 based on pdx mirage, mine is a 5 based on pdx drifter.
]
So whether or not Surge is easy for Aaron doesn`t matter. All that matters is that he hit surge, and hit it cleanly. Is surge a harder/sicker move than blurry drifter in the abstract? That is for the judges to decide. Maybe aesthetically blurry drifter looks cooler. If thats your logic, I respect that. But the question of whether surge is "easy" or not for Aaron should have no bearing on your vote.
BalinorNZ wrote:
It's a 5 based on pdx mirage, mine is a 5 based on pdx drifter.
]
Agree!
Alex Urano
For clarification: All votes submited via this thread OR the voting pages WILL be counted.
As far as my note to henry goes, I guess I have some further explaining to do.
I was wrong to say it is always eaisist to put the hardest move last. It was easiest IMO, in henrys combo. It would be very hard to do most sets out of strightly compared to atomsmasher. My combo had the hard move in the middle which is one reason I ranked it higher.
One reason I allow the players experiance to come into my vote a little is because the main reason behind these competitoins is to push players beyond their current level of play. Sure Vasek could enter that whirlwind and beat the ripwalk, but what good is it doing him? He has'nt pushed himself, the ripwalk guy is getting alot out of it though because he learned a new move.
Surge being an easyer move than blurry drifter: This seems likely to me because getting pdx mirage out of a surging set seems alot easier than getting pdx drifter out of stepping set. Both moves are 5's and if we look at the components they even out. Blurry set is easier in most cases than Surging, but drifter is much harder than pdx mirage, the differance is though, that (in my opinion) its easier to do a hard set and hit something easy off it than it is to do an easy set and get sometihng hard off it. (Eg Fairy ducking mirage is easier than blurry drifter, fairy ducking butterfly is easier than fog).
Does that make sence or am I still talking complete bollocks?
As far as my note to henry goes, I guess I have some further explaining to do
.I was wrong to say it is always eaisist to put the hardest move last. It was easiest IMO, in henrys combo. It would be very hard to do most sets out of strightly compared to atomsmasher. My combo had the hard move in the middle which is one reason I ranked it higher.
One reason I allow the players experiance to come into my vote a little is because the main reason behind these competitoins is to push players beyond their current level of play. Sure Vasek could enter that whirlwind and beat the ripwalk, but what good is it doing him? He has'nt pushed himself, the ripwalk guy is getting alot out of it though because he learned a new move.
Surge being an easyer move than blurry drifter: This seems likely to me because getting pdx mirage out of a surging set seems alot easier than getting pdx drifter out of stepping set. Both moves are 5's and if we look at the components they even out. Blurry set is easier in most cases than Surging, but drifter is much harder than pdx mirage, the differance is though, that (in my opinion) its easier to do a hard set and hit something easy off it than it is to do an easy set and get sometihng hard off it. (Eg Fairy ducking mirage is easier than blurry drifter, fairy ducking butterfly is easier than fog).
Does that make sence or am I still talking complete bollocks?
I understand what you mean, and its your vote and you have the right to choose whatever you think is better! I think your doing a great job by encouraging people to do tricks beyond their confort zone so they can improve more!
But personally between the Blurry Drifter and Surge, i think that Blurry drifter is much more easier because of this:
Many people can learn drifter components easily, and stepping set is pretty much owned by most footbaggers. To be able to hit Blurry Drifter your gonna hae to school pdx drifters alot, which most people can hit. I think that for a Sick 1 Blurry Drifter lacks creativity and overall difficulty.
But what about Surge? Not many people can even Surging set, and even though Aaron can do it easily it is a difficult trick to execute cleanly. I think that Surge is harder than Blurry Drifter because Surging set requires more skill and co-ordination, and IMO Blurry drifter can be fluked alot easier than Surge. Stepping set is such a common set and IMO one of the easier sets to learn, and Surging set takes hell of a time to practice it. If a novice player tried these tricks, i would back him hitting Blurry Drifter first.
In terms of PDx mirage and Pdx drifter, i dont think this can be compared because both your trick and aaron's trick had such a difference in the actual difficulty of the set (Blurry and Surging), and that hitting a harder component after Stepping isn't as hard as Hitting an easier component after a very hard set. If both of you had a Surging set, then of course credit will go to Nic because Pdx drifter out or surging set is very impressive! (Has anyone hit this?) But because yours was a stepping set, i think that difficulty would go towards Aaron.
Sorry, i think i wrote too much
I was really bored after playing NBA Hangtime on NIntendo 64
But reguardless of my probably useless post, Props for hitting these sick tricks!! Both tricks were well executed as well!
But personally between the Blurry Drifter and Surge, i think that Blurry drifter is much more easier because of this:
Many people can learn drifter components easily, and stepping set is pretty much owned by most footbaggers. To be able to hit Blurry Drifter your gonna hae to school pdx drifters alot, which most people can hit. I think that for a Sick 1 Blurry Drifter lacks creativity and overall difficulty.
But what about Surge? Not many people can even Surging set, and even though Aaron can do it easily it is a difficult trick to execute cleanly. I think that Surge is harder than Blurry Drifter because Surging set requires more skill and co-ordination, and IMO Blurry drifter can be fluked alot easier than Surge. Stepping set is such a common set and IMO one of the easier sets to learn, and Surging set takes hell of a time to practice it. If a novice player tried these tricks, i would back him hitting Blurry Drifter first.
In terms of PDx mirage and Pdx drifter, i dont think this can be compared because both your trick and aaron's trick had such a difference in the actual difficulty of the set (Blurry and Surging), and that hitting a harder component after Stepping isn't as hard as Hitting an easier component after a very hard set. If both of you had a Surging set, then of course credit will go to Nic because Pdx drifter out or surging set is very impressive! (Has anyone hit this?) But because yours was a stepping set, i think that difficulty would go towards Aaron.
Sorry, i think i wrote too much
I was really bored after playing NBA Hangtime on NIntendo 64 But reguardless of my probably useless post, Props for hitting these sick tricks!!
Both tricks were well executed as well!Alex Urano
Surge vs. Blurry Drifter Exam.
1. How many people do you can hit blurry drifter cleanly?
2. How many people do you know can hit blurry drifter both sides?
3. How many people do you know can hit blurry drifter bsos?
4 How many people do you know can hit surge, cleanly or not?
5 How many people do you know can hit surge cleanly?
6. How many people do you know can hit surge bsos?
I think for most people, the numbers in their answers go down as they go down my question list. I think there`s a good reason for this. I really think there is no question that surge is harder than blurry drifter. This is a subjective competition however, so I can see people voting for blurry drifter over surge based on style, or aesthetics. But based on difficulty? That`s a hard case to sell.
1. How many people do you can hit blurry drifter cleanly?
2. How many people do you know can hit blurry drifter both sides?
3. How many people do you know can hit blurry drifter bsos?
4 How many people do you know can hit surge, cleanly or not?
5 How many people do you know can hit surge cleanly?
6. How many people do you know can hit surge bsos?
I think for most people, the numbers in their answers go down as they go down my question list. I think there`s a good reason for this. I really think there is no question that surge is harder than blurry drifter. This is a subjective competition however, so I can see people voting for blurry drifter over surge based on style, or aesthetics. But based on difficulty? That`s a hard case to sell.
Put it to the Test!
1. How many people do you can hit blurry drifter cleanly? So Many many people i cant count them, even my tiltless friend who hit it surprisingly cleanly but he cant hit pdx drifter
2. How many people do you know can hit blurry drifter both sides?
Many many people
3. How many people do you know can hit blurry drifter bsos?
Ive seen at least 5 people in real life doing this
4 How many people do you know can hit surge, cleanly or not?
Ive seen a few players hit this, Felix, Aaron, Dan Ednie
5 How many people do you know can hit surge cleanly?
Felix, Aaron, Dan, numbers are low
6. How many people do you know can hit surge bsos?
I've actually never seen this done, but im sure felix or someone can do it.
1. How many people do you can hit blurry drifter cleanly? So Many many people i cant count them, even my tiltless friend who hit it surprisingly cleanly but he cant hit pdx drifter
2. How many people do you know can hit blurry drifter both sides?
Many many people
3. How many people do you know can hit blurry drifter bsos?
Ive seen at least 5 people in real life doing this
4 How many people do you know can hit surge, cleanly or not?
Ive seen a few players hit this, Felix, Aaron, Dan Ednie
5 How many people do you know can hit surge cleanly?
Felix, Aaron, Dan, numbers are low
6. How many people do you know can hit surge bsos?
I've actually never seen this done, but im sure felix or someone can do it.
Alex Urano
How many people do you know who can hit Fairy spinnin butterfly?
How many people do you know who can hit montage?
Montage is much harder, but more common because all of its components are quite widely used. Fairy spinning is underused (for reasons unknown to me) so fewer people can hit spinning fairy beater.
I have not hit surge or even surging set so my opinion is uneducated. However we can all vote with total education because nobody can hit every footbag move that will crop up in these competitoins, so we must guess.
My guess would be that learning surging set wouldent be that hard, I have hit a clean surging set and I think if I tried for a few hours I could hit a mirage out of it. Blurry drifter took me many hours to learn the drifter and quite a few to get the step high enough and consistant enough to put a HARD component onto.
How many people do you know who can hit montage?
Montage is much harder, but more common because all of its components are quite widely used. Fairy spinning is underused (for reasons unknown to me) so fewer people can hit spinning fairy beater.
I have not hit surge or even surging set so my opinion is uneducated. However we can all vote with total education because nobody can hit every footbag move that will crop up in these competitoins, so we must guess.
My guess would be that learning surging set wouldent be that hard, I have hit a clean surging set and I think if I tried for a few hours I could hit a mirage out of it. Blurry drifter took me many hours to learn the drifter and quite a few to get the step high enough and consistant enough to put a HARD component onto.
BalinorNZ wrote:How many people do you know who can hit Fairy spinnin butterfly?
How many people do you know who can hit montage?
Montage is much harder, but more common because all of its components are quite widely used. Fairy spinning is underused (for reasons unknown to me) so fewer people can hit spinning fairy beater.
Surge is less common that Blurry Drifter. As far as i know i think 95% of guiltless players can hit this move. I even see tiltless players hit this without too much difficulty.
As well as this, Surge is harder.
"My guess would be that learning surging set wouldent be that hard, I have hit a clean surging set and I think if I tried for a few hours I could hit a mirage out of it. Blurry drifter took me many hours to learn the drifter and quite a few to get the step high enough and consistant enough to put a HARD component onto."
The HARD component your saying is pdx drifter, which IMO isn't very hard to learn considering that so many people can do this trick. And once you learn pdx drifter, it isn't always neccessary to get a great stepping set ot hit this trick. Also, i think if i tried for a 'few hours' i can hit blurry drifter too. Just like people can try as much as they want to hit a trick but thats probably not the right way to go.
Surging set isn't the hardest set to learn, but it's not the easiest to learn and also it is not used as much as stepping set.
Lets think of it this way:
To be able to do stepping you need this:
solid mirages, decent clippers, practice - basic tiltless requirements
To be able to hit Surging set, you need this:
solid spinning clippers - spinning component
solid gyro mirage - spin + dex component
= Surging Set is harder.
Pdx Drifter vs PDx MIrage:
No, it isnt like that, it should be Stepping Pdx drifter vs Surging Pdx mirage
If Pdx Barrage and Pdx Illusion would be substituted, which combo do you think is harder?
Blurrage, or double Spinning pdx Illusion?
By itself, Barrage is harder than Illusion
IMO, hitting pdx illusion out of double spinning is the "HARD component" rather than hitting barrage out ot stepping, which is also hard.
Oh wel, thats my say.
I've decided this is my last post on this topic! But seriously, it was a fun as comp to watch and big credit to you guys for entering and bringing another element of entertainment
I wish i could join but i have no camera 
Alex Urano
hmm. Personally I really wouldn't say surge is harder than blurry drifter at all. They are such different moves I don't think you can say "this move is harder because less people hit it". I've never seen anybody (except for me ) hit sailing pickup (although I'm sure they have) but I would say that frenzy is a lot harder than sailing pickup despite the fact that I have seen video of a number of people hitting it and know that there are more.
Surging is not nearly as common a set as stepping. Not just because it's harder but because it's not really viewed as a move everybody should learn. I've hit surge twice I think and never try it. For me surge is a lot harder than blurry drifter but also for me sailing symp mirage is probably easier than blurry drifter. I just don't think you can compare difficulty based on what's easiest for you or on how common the move is.
If I hit mouth set ducking clipper for the next sick 1 I'll expect to get very high votes from Ken and Alex based on the fact that I'm pretty sure they've never seen that move. Personally if I entered that in this comp I would have voted for it last.
That said I did vote for Aaron above Nic - although it really was very very close. I guess the fact that Aaron looked very relaxed hitting his move - he made it look pretty easy. I don't think Nic had the same level of control on his move - so Aaron's execution was better - which is not really surprising because I'm sure Aaron has hit his move many times while Nic has only hit that a few times. As Nic gets better his blurry drifters will look more controlled and easy too - that's the nature of footbag
) hit sailing pickup (although I'm sure they have) but I would say that frenzy is a lot harder than sailing pickup despite the fact that I have seen video of a number of people hitting it and know that there are more.Surging is not nearly as common a set as stepping. Not just because it's harder but because it's not really viewed as a move everybody should learn. I've hit surge twice I think and never try it. For me surge is a lot harder than blurry drifter but also for me sailing symp mirage is probably easier than blurry drifter. I just don't think you can compare difficulty based on what's easiest for you or on how common the move is.
If I hit mouth set ducking clipper for the next sick 1 I'll expect to get very high votes from Ken and Alex based on the fact that I'm pretty sure they've never seen that move. Personally if I entered that in this comp I would have voted for it last.
That said I did vote for Aaron above Nic - although it really was very very close. I guess the fact that Aaron looked very relaxed hitting his move - he made it look pretty easy. I don't think Nic had the same level of control on his move - so Aaron's execution was better - which is not really surprising because I'm sure Aaron has hit his move many times while Nic has only hit that a few times. As Nic gets better his blurry drifters will look more controlled and easy too - that's the nature of footbag
BalinorNZ wrote:How many people do you know who can hit Fairy spinnin butterfly?
How many people do you know who can hit montage?
Montage is much harder, but more common because all of its components are quite widely used. Fairy spinning is underused (for reasons unknown to me) so fewer people can hit spinning fairy beater.
I have not hit surge or even surging set so my opinion is uneducated. However we can all vote with total education because nobody can hit every footbag move that will crop up in these competitoins, so we must guess.
My guess would be that learning surging set wouldent be that hard, I have hit a clean surging set and I think if I tried for a few hours I could hit a mirage out of it. Blurry drifter took me many hours to learn the drifter and quite a few to get the step high enough and consistant enough to put a HARD component onto.
Its nothing against you Nic, and i'm not angry because you put ME behind you, i am angry......... Sigh. I dont know how to put it into words, but i will try.
Look at everyone elses votes. Where are you and aaron placed relative to eachother? Where are you and Aaron placed in your votes? it is a difference, and im sure your vote wont make that much of a difference in the standings. Just try to vote without the thought of benefitting yourself in mind.
I am not saying that i am a model voter, but look at where i placed myself compared to where other people placed me? i am actually worse in my rankings than in about 70% of everyone else. You are higher in yours then (pardon me for my inaccuracy) probably everyone else who voted.
JSACK wrote:alright well me and obara'bars, shredded our dicks off, since we are both in high school, obviously there is some sort of talent show
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1) It doesnt matter how one person votes in this competition so this whole discussion was pointless. Votes balance eachother out and the outliers usuallymake little to no difference. It would be a different matter if Nic was purposefully voting maliciously to benefit himnself, however, this clearly is not the case. Henry, props on your hard trick, and Nic, props on yours as well.
Lets get some more votes for this comp please!
Lets get some more votes for this comp please!
My name: Jeremy Mirken, AKA Chocolatey Shatner, AKA jerk enemy rim.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
I kick it with trunk chef elf and liz luck key my.
we should rename modified "melodrama.ca" - I feel that that would be more accurate.
Henry - grow up People are free to vote however they want. If you want to put yourself first and then the rest of the combos from worst to best so that you have the highest chance of winning - that's fine! If you're the only person who does that - with 40 or so votes already, nobody's going to care. Either my sick 1 votes are wrong or everybody else is. I'm sorry everybody that you got it wrong but I'm not going to really take it up too much. Actually I could be wrong - Mike and I discussed it and it really depends on depth perception which sadly is lacking in a 2d video, but I don't think there is anyway you could know if Jorden's move is clean or not for sure - you've just got to go with what you think (but that's a seperate issue).
Henry - grow up
People are free to vote however they want. If you want to put yourself first and then the rest of the combos from worst to best so that you have the highest chance of winning - that's fine! If you're the only person who does that - with 40 or so votes already, nobody's going to care. Either my sick 1 votes are wrong or everybody else is. I'm sorry everybody that you got it wrong but I'm not going to really take it up too much. Actually I could be wrong - Mike and I discussed it and it really depends on depth perception which sadly is lacking in a 2d video, but I don't think there is anyway you could know if Jorden's move is clean or not for sure - you've just got to go with what you think (but that's a seperate issue).