ADD system changes brainstorming

mc · Post by mc » 13 Feb 2006 17:52

Dyalan,

first off, there's no need to start with a shout.

Second off, you've got some pretty fallacious reasoning going there. I don't know what you mean by, "they're not called UNUSUALS for nothing" (and by the way, I don't appreciate the caps again. I'm not an idiot, so you don't have to go over the top making things abundantly clear to me). Do you mean that they're called unusuals because players aren't supposed to, or aren't meant to do them all the time? Maybe you do actually think that, and it's that kind of sad perspective on freestyle that I'd like to see changed.

more fallacious reasoning... "[one reason they're not done is] because it is so difficult." The only reason these moves are more "difficult" is because they're not done. It's not the other way around. They just seem more difficult to you because you don't train them at all. I love weird, wacky tricks. I've hit a bunch of them, some no other players have hit. They don't take me longer to learn than any other new trick, and it's not [entirely] because I'm a freak with magical powers. I can hit some crazy stuff because of my ankles, but being able to do most of my weird tricks just comes from trying.

as for it being about "tastes and trends", one of the reasons I think changes would be good is they would influence people's tastes. A common taste from one trick to the next is big adds for lots of people, so by acknowledging more diverse elements with appropriate add value, we can then encourage more diverse styles.

I agree with your reasoning (but not your simile) regarding adding unusuals delays and elements to ones' game in hopes of changing the perception of others. In fact, I already acknowledged that approach in an above post. And, it's definitely been my personal approach since, oh, I don't know, since I began freestyling, I'd say.

your paragraph that starts with "as for modified being 'active'..." seems to be discouraging this conversation from continuing. I deliberately titled this thread with the word brainstorming to discourage people like you from posting things like that. If you don't want the discussion to carry on because you think it's wrong, or you don't like it, feel free not to read it. If you just want to be discouraging, I've got some less pleasant words for you...

So, yeah, this is brainstorming, but the only storming you're doing is raining on our parade in a nasty way (ALL THOSE CAPITALS AREN'T NECESSARY. IT'S LIKE SHOUTING AND NO ONE LIKES TO BE SHOUTED AT).

So, have you said your piece? I hope so.

Maybe I should start another thread called "changing the internal perception of freestyle". Maybe some of you are starting to see how this is not really about scoring competition to me. I'd be interested in others opinions on non-scoring-related methods of getting people to diversify.

shredzilla · Post by **shredzilla** » 13 Feb 2006 18:22

Okay fine, Matt...We'll give you a Butt Stall Add. Are you happy now?

I don't think Dylan was trying to shout though, I think he was using caps to emphasize a point, instead of using italic lettering. When chatting or posting online, voice inflection disappears, and using bold to emphasize importance, or italics to emphasize inflection is the proper etiquette. It's a common mistake that I also made in my previous post.

mc · Post by mc » 13 Feb 2006 18:35

hahah, butt stall add... yeah, that's what it's all about for me

bold and italics... yeah, those are both better, aren't they... those darn caps had me fooled into thinking that post of his was full of resentment and exasperation... silly me ....

james_dean · Post by **james_dean** » 13 Feb 2006 19:36

Yeah. Caps translates directly into shouting.

For your information, I am fully aware of how routines are scored. But there's no reason why shred30 has to be scored using ADDs. (Yes I realise there's no artistic part in shred30) Also concepts like guiltless and fearless lead to hundreds of "pheonix > blurry whirl > PS whirl > spinning whirl" combos and you can't tell me that isn't influenced by ADDs. It's a really restrictive way of choosing what tricks to hit, and can't be good for footbag.

Butt stall? Yeah that's alright... but I'm still lobbying for a crotch stall ADD

SlashC · Post by **SlashC** » 13 Feb 2006 21:59

ok ok

yay to carry add... yay to roll add... nay to everything else. I'm against cancelling out xbd add for the following reason: I see xbd as a component of a trick distinguishable from any other component. If someone could wrap their delaying leg twice around their support leg I would give them 2 xbd adds. Bottom line: adds = components. xbd = add

I'm intrigued by Jon's idea to ditch away the del add. Speaking in terms of difficulty I think it takes at least as much control to kick the bag after a dex or bod component (if you plan to link out of it) compared to delaying the bag. Looking at the issue in terms of components only... Why wouldn't kicking get an add of its own? The bag is clearly contacted with the leg/foot moving in the upward direction (a delay contacts the bag with your leg/foot moving in a downward direction)... in my opinion, as distinguishable from a delay as a carry. I therefore propose that kicking be considered as an add/component.

EDIT: I just tried to do a double clipper (xbd xbd clip)... impossible btw... but I kind of managed to figure out how a monster works. I think someone could definately do at least a heel stall without rotating out of that position. It's like a xbd heel, but with the delaying leg first going over the knee and then under into xbd.

janis · Post by **janis** » 14 Feb 2006 04:01

SlashC wrote: I'm intrigued by Jon's idea to ditch away the del add. Speaking in terms of difficulty I think it takes at least as much control to kick the bag after a dex or bod component (if you plan to link out of it) compared to delaying the bag.

Agreed, the extra difficulty is kicking the bag before and after the dex and I think that warrants an extra add. Anyone who has tried kick set ATW kick will agree that it is much harder than stall set ATW stall.

My 2 cents on the unusual surface situation. IMHO, it is much harder to set a big add trick from an unusual surface. Because the set isn't included in the calculation of adds, setting from an unusual surface is a disadvantage in shred 30, for example you can't make nearly as many adds off a shin stall set as compared with a toe set.

concepts like guiltless and fearless lead to hundreds of "pheonix > blurry whirl > PS whirl > spinning whirl" combos and you can't tell me that isn't influenced by ADDs. It's a really restrictive way of choosing what tricks to hit, and can't be good for footbag

In the end the add system increases conformity in footbag, a game I thought was about originality, with people hitting tricks because of their add value. Perhaps it would be better if we quitted arguing about the add system and did moves because we enjoy doing them.

mc · Post by mc » 14 Feb 2006 07:14

okay, officially starting a new thread.

Dat · Post by **Dat** » 14 Feb 2006 15:17

It's hard to develop the skill for clippers of course, but once you get the hang of it there isn't that much physical effort needed to execute them. I think that's what Matt was trying to get at.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 14 Feb 2006 17:21

Sorry, I didn't mean to shout.
I don't mean they're unusuals because we're not supposed to do them, i mean they're unusuals because they are unusual - ie not usually done. I think if everyone did them all the time, they would loose some of their cache.
I don't think "the only reason these moves are difficult is because they are not done". Moves don't become objectively easier with practice, they only become subjectively easier.
I also love wierd/wacky/original tricks and I'm glad that they haven't taken you longer to learn but personally i find many of the difficult, not because i don't do them, or because they take me longer to learn, but because they require alot of concentration and control to put into strings.
I do agree that some people look to the add system to guide them as to what to learn next, but i think this is best offset by players influencing each other rather than changing the add system. As you mentioned again, you and many others already do this. I think the online comps are good way to do this and I think the January comp results should encourage people to use their imaginations.
Everytime a cool move or set of moves falls by the wayside are we going to endevour to make it worth more adds?
I have no problem with a thread on the add system, all i'm saying is, once you've decided exactly what you want to change and how, there are other ways to see that change happen. This sort of thread should be thought of as the first step, and the first step of many. I wanted to make that clear, because too often footbaggers get together online and come up with a bunch of things they want to see changed then don't take the next step and do something about seeing the changes through.
I think a thread about changing internal perceptions about footbag would be good thread, and i think it should start with changing perceptions about the add system. People should think of it as nothing more than 1) the current means of scoring shred 30, 2) a way of describing whats going on in footbag moves completely independent of difficulty.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 15 Feb 2006 01:58

slapdash21 wrote:well, i learned whirl before i could do a flipside clipper, and i can still barely do drifter, as you may or may not recall from the roch. jam

though i admit learning barrage was harder than butterfly for me...

mistah o'wheely wrote:The body that would make such changes is the IFC and there have been no changes to the add system in a fairly long (relative) period of time. Probably because at the moment the only members of the ifc-freestyle committee are myself, Jan Zimmerman, Jan Struz, Steve Goldberg, Vince Bradley and Scott Davidson - all of which are very busy people with a number of priorities that we're working on apart from the add system. (like updating the freestyle routine rules). Topics like this one come up all the time but nobody ever takes the next step and actually does anything to implement those ideas. Any IFPA member can apply to join the IFC but it's pretty unlikely that your opinions will ever have any impact if the only place you voice them is at modified. Modified has no official status and does not make any decision regarding the rules for freestyle footbag.
also i read the above a few days ago and forgot to say something about it. i realize modified doesnt have any official sway, but i feel like its a pretty good measure of whats going on with the most active section of the worldwide footbag community (coupled with .org). if we are dedicated enough to discuss all of this clearly modified is a forum for baggers that are very interested in the sport and actively observing where the sport is going.
or something like that.

I'm sorry but this simply isn't the case. I wish it was but the fact is the majority of people on modified have no effect at all on official IFPA rules or policy. There have been countless discussions on this forum about all kinds of things that need changing but as far as I'm aware not one single person who has advocated a particular change has made any effort to submit that idea to the IFC, the IFPA board of directors or the other relevent committee. Things in the IFPA don't happen because one of the members reads modified and says "yes that's a good idea I'll try and implement it." - They happen because motivated people spend a long time working hard to try and get particular changes implemented. In the time that I've been involved with the IFPA there has not been a single change to the freestyle rules nor has any person made a serious effort to do so. It is concerning to think that people think discussion on this topic will achieve anything without people deciding to take some initative and actually involve themselves with the bodies that actually make the changes.

edit:
Incidentally I notice that if you combine Matt's suggestion on how pdx should work and getting rid of xbd adds with Jon's suggestion to get rid of delay adds then nuclear ducking butterfly is a 3 add... as would be pixie symp mirage... hmm.

mc · Post by mc » 15 Feb 2006 07:17

okay, jeremy's right!!!

EVERYONE STOP TALKING ABOUT IT! NO MORE BRAINSTORMING OR IMPERFECT IDEAS OR IDEAS THAT DON'T HAVE AN ACCOMPANYING MANIFESTO SIGNED IN TRIPLICATE BY ALL STANDING IFPA OFFICIALS!!!

....

Thanks for that Jeremy, I think we're all now doubly informed.

By the way, what isn't the case about what bowler said? He "realized modified doesn't have any official sway", and he feels that "modified is a forum for baggers that are very interested in the sport" and "a pretty good measure of what's going on with the most active section of the worldwide footbag community".

I think those statements are accurate.

I also think you've made the totality of your POV on this discussion and this topic quite clear. Thanks.

ps: my use of caps for shouting was facetious, not direct, like Dyalan's, so I think it's different

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 15 Feb 2006 13:56

I was re-reading some of this thread, and I like some of Matt's ideas, but I disagree with one thing Jorden said:

Although we value tricks like anchor, dragon, doof, zipper, flying xbd knee, monster aesthetically over commonplace surfaces, the add-consciousness of today's players causes most people to avoid using these unusual positions.

I disagree that it is because of add-consciousness that people less-frequently use these tricks. Instead, it is because many of these tricks require extreme body contortion or insane difficulty. I can't hit doof-I don't have the flexibility. If it were worth 8 adds, I'd still not be able to hit it, no matter how many times I tried, thus I'd NEVER throw it in competition. The same can basically be said for anchor, which is also a biatch to play into or out of.

I don't think that xbd toe warrants an extra add as compared to doof. The difficulty gap is too large for them to be awarded a similar ADD value. Some other operational definition must be used to warrant the unusual add to certain tricks or else the one in this thread needs to be slightly tweaked to account for the diffuculty of doof/anchor as compared to dragon.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 16 Feb 2006 00:10

Matt Cross wrote:okay, jeremy's right!!!

EVERYONE STOP TALKING ABOUT IT! NO MORE BRAINSTORMING OR IMPERFECT IDEAS OR IDEAS THAT DON'T HAVE AN ACCOMPANYING MANIFESTO SIGNED IN TRIPLICATE BY ALL STANDING IFPA OFFICIALS!!!

....

Thanks for that Jeremy, I think we're all now doubly informed.

By the way, what isn't the case about what bowler said? He "realized modified doesn't have any official sway", and he feels that "modified is a forum for baggers that are very interested in the sport" and "a pretty good measure of what's going on with the most active section of the worldwide footbag community".

I think those statements are accurate.

I also think you've made the totality of your POV on this discussion and this topic quite clear. Thanks.

ps: my use of caps for shouting was facetious, not direct, like Dyalan's, so I think it's different

I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss it, I'm saying that if you have a serious opinion on this you should make an effort to actually have that opinion voiced somewhere where it will actually mean something. As I said before, topics like this come up all the time and in my time at modified I have never seen one actually achieve anything. My prediction for this topic is it will hang around for a while and then either people will come up with an agreement or it will die - either way without any actual achievement in regards to the add system and the rules for footbag.

What is it you hope to achieve with this topic? I can assure you that the IFC will not change the rules for footbag based on a topic at modified. As somebody involved with the official process for rules in footbag I find it immensly frustrating that so many people have opinions but basically nobody is prepared to actually put in any time or effort into trying to voice those opinions somewhere where it actually means they can have a say in the future of this sport.

At the moment there are 20 members of the IFC - 14 are net players who have rules that have constantly been updated and are in touch with what is used in competitions. 6 are freestylers and have rules that are about 6 years old and not used in any competition anywhere. One of those 6 (myself) has never attended an IFPA sanctioned competition - but I feel most strongly that actions speak louder than words and since nobody else at modified is actually prepared to make an effort to actually achieve something positive in this regard I've taken on the job as much as I can myself.

You are of course intitled to spend as much time as you like debating topics like this. I just think it would be great if instead you spent that same time doing something constructive - like having the exact same debate with the IFC instead of people at modified.

mc · Post by mc » 16 Feb 2006 07:48

Jeremy wrote:"I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss it, I'm saying that if you have a serious opinion on this you should make an effort to actually have that opinion voiced somewhere where it will actually mean something. "

This and your point about nuke duck butter = pixie symp mirage seem to be contradictory.

I think I'll just discuss this a while longer on this forum, so I can have it good and straight in my head, and so that kind of humungous discrepancy (a clear indicator that this needs a lot more discussion, brainstorming, and thought before it's brought before the IFPA) can be caught and worked here in cyberspace, instead of you catching it for me in front of the IFPA council. I'm not going to waste the IFPA's time with something that obviously needs a lot more work.

To answer your question of what I hope to acheive with this topic, I hope to acheive some ideas. Some might call this practice "brainstorming", which is the title of the thread, a thread that I deliberately titled as such so I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time dealing with the exact opinion that you've posted 3 times now. This thread is just an incubator.

Thank you for making your POV on this issue now triply clear.

me wrote:By the way, what isn't the case about what bowler said? He "realized modified doesn't have any official sway", and he feels that "modified is a forum for baggers that are very interested in the sport" and "a pretty good measure of what's going on with the most active section of the worldwide footbag community". I think those statements are accurate."

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 16 Feb 2006 14:27

Matt Cross wrote:
Jeremy wrote:"I'm not saying you shouldn't discuss it, I'm saying that if you have a serious opinion on this you should make an effort to actually have that opinion voiced somewhere where it will actually mean something. "
This and your point about nuke duck butter = pixie symp mirage seem to be contradictory.

I make the effort to have my opinions voiced at the places where they'll have an effect. I don't see any contradiction. Especially since my comment about nuke ducking butter and pixie symp mirage wasn't a serious opinion - just a small comment attached to a serious opinion.

I think I'll just discuss this a while longer on this forum, so I can have it good and straight in my head, and so that kind of humungous discrepancy (a clear indicator that this needs a lot more discussion, brainstorming, and thought before it's brought before the IFPA) can be caught and worked here in cyberspace, instead of you catching it for me in front of the IFPA council. I'm not going to waste the IFPA's time with something that obviously needs a lot more work.

To answer your question of what I hope to acheive with this topic, I hope to acheive some ideas. Some might call this practice "brainstorming", which is the title of the thread, a thread that I deliberately titled as such so I wouldn't have to spend a lot of time dealing with the exact opinion that you've posted 3 times now. This thread is just an incubator.

Why not go read the current edition of the rules - there is a 2004 draft edition in the public files under the board of directors section at footbag.org which is an almost accurate version of what the current freestyle rules are. It will probably take until 2007 or 2008 to get the freestyle rules updated to a stage where they're rules that are actually used in competition - I think your plans of getting the add system changed are very unlikely to happen before that happens.

Anyway it's clear discussing this further will not achieve anything. I look forward to seeing what positive outcomes this topic achieves.

mc · Post by mc » 16 Feb 2006 15:36

okay, you're right jeremy. This topic will acheive nothing. I absolutely agree with you. I'll consider the topic closed from here on out. Thanks for helping me see the light.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 16 Feb 2006 16:56

I'm not asking you to stop discussing things, I'm asking you and everybody else who has an opinion on this topic to be involved with this kind of policy at a level higher than just having an opinion.

Guest_2 · Post by **Guest_2** » 17 Feb 2006 07:01

What's the point of trying to install it as a rule until you've discussed it thoroughly. I think talking about it at this level will instigate much more. Check out the disussion of the Paradox Debate continued where someone suggest what Matt did: http://www.footbag.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8&start=45

Let's wax intellectual over it and decide what we wish to pursue at a higher level

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 17 Feb 2006 19:00

I'm sorry my responses in this topic were too agressive and alienating. I was venting my frustration at some similar and related issues that really have nothing to do with modified (spending 8 months working on something without achieving anything). By all means carry on this discussion and maybe it will achieve some change - certainly my attempts at creating some change haven't been successful so maybe this is a better method?

slapdash21 · Post by **slapdash21** » 18 Feb 2006 14:41

hell, this is our sport, and change has to begin somewhere