It has been discussed over the years the need to accurately determine difficulty. Currently we use the ADD system as a rough estimate of that difficulty. I know I know - Adds DON'T equal difficulty. And I agree with you 100%, which is the purpose of this thread.
Before I get into it, I ask that you keep an open mind to what I am about to show you and also that this is an INCOMPLETE list of IDEAS and is completely open to discussion, broader view, exceptions, etc...
Basically I want to present the idea to the community as a FREEBIE and then let imagination, logic, and reason bring it to fruition. I am looking to such great minds as Ken S., Jeremy O., Honza W., Matt C., Cameron K., and anyone really that has something positive or negative to contribute to the discussion. (Kyle this includes you!)
So here goes nothing:
When I think about difficulty I think about the physics of a move, the energy needed to execute that move, as well as, the bodies movement in performing that move. I will attempt to demonstrate my theory in a typed format. This way we can communicate and/or demonstrate using symbols with predefined definitions. Each definition will include a symbol that represents that component, as well as, a point value associated with that component. Again this is an incomplete list of ideas. I call it FLEX code and define it in part as such below:
Definitions:
! = Toe stall | 1
c = clipper stall | 2
/ = in/out half dex | 1
// = full dex | 2
/// = 1 ½ dex | 3
//// = 2 full dex | 4
///// = 2 ½ dex | 5
////// = 3 full dex | 6
d = duck | 1
v = dive | 1
y = symposium | 1
s = half spin | 1
ss = full spin | 2
sss = 1 ½ spin | 3
ssss = 2 full spins | 4
- = transitional component addition | 1
The transitional component represents the effort the body displays in order to transition from one type of component into another. I am sure there will be a lot of back and forth on the use of this component and I welcome any involvement.
Before I list examples of how to use these symbols to define a move, I must clarify that some symbols have not been rated yet, or have been left out on purpose. IE. the PARADOX/X-DEX components have been replaced with a dex definition instead for clarity. This is one point that may steer some away, but I hope it is embraced instead. The idea is to limit the use of special cases if that can be done in order to keep the symbol list small and usable by anyone without having to ask yourself whether or not a move is paradox or has an x-dex.
Examples: 3 adds
Butterfly > /-c = 4
Osis > s-c = 4
Pdx Mirage > //-! = 4
Whirl > //-c = 5
Rev whirl > /-c = 4
Toe whirl > //-c = 5
Toe Rev Whirl > /-c = 4
Drifter > /-c = 4
Pixie Op Clipper > /-c = 4
Pixie Sm Clipper > //-c = 5
Smear > /-//-! = 6
Fear > //-//-! = 7
Smudge > /-//-! = 6
Fudge > //-//-! = 7
Atom Smasher > //-//-! = 7
DATW > ////-! = 6
D Switch > ////-! = 6
Pixie S Mirage > /-//-! = 6
Take a look at 2 of the moves defined above; whirl vs. butterfly for example:
Whirl > //-c = 5
Butterfly > /-c = 4
Whirl has a dex that goes over and under the bag, followed by a transition to a clipper. Butterfly has an over dex followed by a transition to clipper. Whirl scores slightly higher than butterfly. The benefits to this difference in difficulty will become more evident as we compare more complex moves.
Examples:
Ripwalk > /-/-c = 6
Barfly > ///-c = 6
Pdx Whirl > ///-c = 6
Pdx Drifter > //-c = 5
Dada > /-/-c = 6
Flurry > ///-/-! = 7
Spin Osis > ss-s-c = 7
Spin Pdx Mirage > ss-//-! = 7
Spin Butterfly > ss-/-c = 7
Torque > /-s-c = 6
Pdx DLO > //-/-! = 6
Let's take a look at 2 more moves for comparison:
Pdx Whirl > ///-c = 6
Flurry > ///-/-! = 7
PDX whirl has a 11/2 dex followed by a transition to a clipper. Flurry has a 11/2 dex followed by a transition to a half dex followed by a transition to a toe stall. In this comparison the transitions in flurry out number those in pdx whirl, as do the dexes. Despite flurry ending in a 1 point toe stall, it still out scores pdx whirl by 1 point.
One thing that I am struggling with and this is where some expertise could help define a little better - I don't agree with the score given to pdx drifter.
Pdx Drifter > //-c = 5
In this system, pdx drifter is defined by a full dex that transitions to a clipper. It scores low on the scale. But I believe there is some merit to having to avoid your standing leg as you transition to clipper from the full dex. This part may need some more exploration to get it right. Your help is valued here for sure!!! I find that any nuclear set scores the same as a atomic, so I feel we need a better definition that can handle pdx in this case without necessarily calling it pdx.
Examples: 5 adds
Blurriest > /-///-c = 8
Blurrier > /-///-c = 8
Blurry Whirl > /-///-c = 8
Blurry Drifter > /-//-c = 7
Mobius > ss/-s-c = 8
PS Whirl > ///y-c = 7
Fusion > //-///-c = 9
Vortex > ss-//-c = 8
Inspinning Osis > sss-s-c = 8
Gyro Ripwalk > s-/-/-c = 8
Superfly > ///y-c = 7
Ripwarrior > /-d-/-c = 8
Pdx Torque > //-s-c = 7
Fog > /-//-/-! = 8
Here you can start to see the separation that I would expect to see as moves get more complex. The largest can be seen by Atom Smasher above, but I believe it is agreed that Atom is 4 anyways, so I didn't want to use it as an example, as it is a little more obvious than most.
Compare:
Fusion > //-///-c = 9
PS Whirl > ///y-c = 7
Fusion is an over and under dex that transitions to a 1 1/2 dex that transitions to a clipper for a score of 9. PS whirl is a 1 1/2 dex move done symposium that transitions into a clipper. Notice that I included the "y" or symposium component on the actual dex, rather than having it be transitioned into and out of. I feel that the symposium is part of the dex rather than a separate component on its own.
Examples: 6 adds
Torture Rack > /-///y-c = 9
Nemesis > ///-///-c = 10
Spin Pdx Blender > ss-///-s-c = 11
Food > /-///-s-c = 10
Beta Fog > /-//y-/-! = 9
Duck Pdx Dada > d-//-/-c = 9
Flurricane > s-///-/-! = 9
Lastly let's compare Spin Pdx blender to Torture rack.
Spin Pdx Blender > ss-///-s-c = 11
Torture Rack > /-///y-c = 9
Here I have assigned a full spin followed by a transition to a 1 1/2 dex transitioned to a half spin followed by a clipper. HUGE MOVE when broken down this way. Torture rack in comparison is a half dex set tranistioned to a 1 1/2 dex done symposium followed by a clipper. Also note that dexes performed by the same leg in the same direction do not receive transitional points, while clearly separated dexes do!
Well I've said more than a mouthful. Please take a look if you care to examine the work I have done. And please feel free to add, comment, discuss, reject, etc...
Thanks for listening,
An attempt to accurately rate difficulty
An attempt to accurately rate difficulty
Go out and shred already.
~Damon Mathews
~Damon Mathews
I really like it.
thoughts -
I don't think clipper should receive more recognition units than toe stall. this system is meant to accurately rate difficulty of moves done by experienced players, and for experienced players, clipper is not twice as difficult as toe stall.
I also didn't agree with the pdx drifter rating. maybe "component to far component" should receive an extra transfer recognition unit per unit of farness?
"unit of farness" being defined as "beyond the adjacent dex region", of which there are 4; 2 per leg (inside and outside).
so ripwalk would receive one transfer unit between dexes for a directly adjacent transfer. blurry whirl would receive two transfer units, one for the transfer itself, and one for the farness between dexes. whirlwalk would receive three transfer units, one of the tranfser itself, and two for the farness between the dexes.
so, whereas pdx whirl would receive one transfer unit between the dex and the delay, pdx drifter would receive three transfer units.
also, maybe there should be no transfer recognition between dexes and same foot delays that include no measure of farness (ie: legover, blender, dyno)
also, doesn't measure for moves that involve transfer of the bag from one region to another while maintaining a delay (osis, rake), body rolls, and still considers "contact" as the beginning and ending of a particular move (but, after further thought, maybe that's not such a big deal, and it's kind of a perceptual issue).
I think the farness units should also apply to the beginning of the move in regards to the surface from whence it came.
But, I think it's more accurate than adds, and I applaud your effort. I like your idea, and I look forward to seeing what you think of my ideas.
thoughts -
I don't think clipper should receive more recognition units than toe stall. this system is meant to accurately rate difficulty of moves done by experienced players, and for experienced players, clipper is not twice as difficult as toe stall.
I also didn't agree with the pdx drifter rating. maybe "component to far component" should receive an extra transfer recognition unit per unit of farness?
"unit of farness" being defined as "beyond the adjacent dex region", of which there are 4; 2 per leg (inside and outside).
so ripwalk would receive one transfer unit between dexes for a directly adjacent transfer. blurry whirl would receive two transfer units, one for the transfer itself, and one for the farness between dexes. whirlwalk would receive three transfer units, one of the tranfser itself, and two for the farness between the dexes.
so, whereas pdx whirl would receive one transfer unit between the dex and the delay, pdx drifter would receive three transfer units.
also, maybe there should be no transfer recognition between dexes and same foot delays that include no measure of farness (ie: legover, blender, dyno)
also, doesn't measure for moves that involve transfer of the bag from one region to another while maintaining a delay (osis, rake), body rolls, and still considers "contact" as the beginning and ending of a particular move (but, after further thought, maybe that's not such a big deal, and it's kind of a perceptual issue).
I think the farness units should also apply to the beginning of the move in regards to the surface from whence it came.
But, I think it's more accurate than adds, and I applaud your effort. I like your idea, and I look forward to seeing what you think of my ideas.
BRICK!
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
Love it!
I think you nailed it Matt with the additional transition awarded for Pdx Drifter. And I absolutely love the way you phrased it as "farness". Another term might be "travel". I'll try to represent it below:
_ _ _ _ These 4 underscores represent the 4 stalling points (unusual delays not represented here).
0 _ _ _ This would be a Left foot clipper (as you are facing the player)
_ 0 _ _ This would be a right foot toe stall
So to represent farness or travel you could award a transition as it crosses a plane represented below by pipes.
_ | _ | _ | _
In the case of PDX drifter lets examine the planes crossed and factor them into the rating.
0 | _ | _ | _ This represents the inital set
_ | _ | 0 | _ full dex takes place here
0 | _ | _ | _ bag returns to original position
So it crossed 2 planes twice (double hip pivot)
--//--c = 8 I like this but feel that the full dex negates the second plane. Should the over under dex take out one of the planes? Or does this look legit as compared to ripwalk and pdx whirl re-examined below?:
--///-c = 8 pdx whirl
-/-/-c = 7 ripwalk
I like it!
About clipper being twice as difficult as a toe stall. I am not 100% convinced that 2x is the right answer. However, I play with both experts and noobs and find that although we the pros have it down, clipper is really hard for people to learn. It requires extra balance and a crank that a toe stall does not. You can drop a floppy bag onto a toe stall and catch it with little effort. Holding a clipper stall is damn hard in comparison. I think it requires a muscle set that must be drilled into the body to learn properly. And even top pros can have less crank than others. So while I agree with you about it not being quite twice as difficult, it needs to be represented in some non fractional form in order to keep things reasonably measurable. You know - so you can add it up in your head quickly.
Let me know what you think about the farness - travel idea. Also, if you have an idea for how to score a XBD rake as compared to clipper. I am all ears.
edit: Feel free to use symbols to show your work. We can compare notes that way without getting wordy and confusing. Like I would love to see Your blurry whirl definition in symbols (talking to Matt).
I think you nailed it Matt with the additional transition awarded for Pdx Drifter. And I absolutely love the way you phrased it as "farness". Another term might be "travel". I'll try to represent it below:
_ _ _ _ These 4 underscores represent the 4 stalling points (unusual delays not represented here).
0 _ _ _ This would be a Left foot clipper (as you are facing the player)
_ 0 _ _ This would be a right foot toe stall
So to represent farness or travel you could award a transition as it crosses a plane represented below by pipes.
_ | _ | _ | _
In the case of PDX drifter lets examine the planes crossed and factor them into the rating.
0 | _ | _ | _ This represents the inital set
_ | _ | 0 | _ full dex takes place here
0 | _ | _ | _ bag returns to original position
So it crossed 2 planes twice (double hip pivot)
--//--c = 8 I like this but feel that the full dex negates the second plane. Should the over under dex take out one of the planes? Or does this look legit as compared to ripwalk and pdx whirl re-examined below?:
--///-c = 8 pdx whirl
-/-/-c = 7 ripwalk
I like it!
About clipper being twice as difficult as a toe stall. I am not 100% convinced that 2x is the right answer. However, I play with both experts and noobs and find that although we the pros have it down, clipper is really hard for people to learn. It requires extra balance and a crank that a toe stall does not. You can drop a floppy bag onto a toe stall and catch it with little effort. Holding a clipper stall is damn hard in comparison. I think it requires a muscle set that must be drilled into the body to learn properly. And even top pros can have less crank than others. So while I agree with you about it not being quite twice as difficult, it needs to be represented in some non fractional form in order to keep things reasonably measurable. You know - so you can add it up in your head quickly.
Let me know what you think about the farness - travel idea. Also, if you have an idea for how to score a XBD rake as compared to clipper. I am all ears.
edit: Feel free to use symbols to show your work. We can compare notes that way without getting wordy and confusing. Like I would love to see Your blurry whirl definition in symbols (talking to Matt).
hey,
I don't see pdx drifter like this, as you wrote it
"
0 | _ | _ | _ This represents the inital set
_ | _ | 0 | _ full dex takes place here
0 | _ | _ | _ bag returns to original position
"
I see it like this
"
0 | _ | _ | _ This represents the inital set
_ | _ | _ | 0 HALF dex takes place here
0 | _ | _ | _ bag returns to original position
"
The way you wrote it would be accurate pdx grifter
I don't see pdx drifter like this, as you wrote it
"
0 | _ | _ | _ This represents the inital set
_ | _ | 0 | _ full dex takes place here
0 | _ | _ | _ bag returns to original position
"
I see it like this
"
0 | _ | _ | _ This represents the inital set
_ | _ | _ | 0 HALF dex takes place here
0 | _ | _ | _ bag returns to original position
"
The way you wrote it would be accurate pdx grifter
BRICK!
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
I see - you see it as far drifter. Ok!
I was seeing it as pdx miraging clipper, cause thats how I hit it.
That would be 3 planes then - DAMN! No wonder I can only hit one in a row -LOL
Thanks for clarifying. This is why I ask for help. I am by no means an expert, but want so badly to see accuracy in footbag scoring.
So you would represent PDX drifter this way:
---//---c =10
How about Pdx whirl
---///-c = 9
And ripwalk
-/-/-c = 7
When I place in transitions through all planes I see an overlap for the dex. Like the under part of the dex in pdx drifter is a plane cross no?
--//--c = 8 where the third planes are taken already by dexes?
Show me how you see it. I think you are on to it.
Thanks,
edit: If we take out the full dex and put in a half dex and leave the planes alone, then the 3 tricks break down like this:
---/---c = 9 pdx drifter
---//-c = 8 pdx whirl
-/-/-c = 7 ripwalk
Does this look more reasonable?
I was seeing it as pdx miraging clipper, cause thats how I hit it.
That would be 3 planes then - DAMN! No wonder I can only hit one in a row -LOL
Thanks for clarifying. This is why I ask for help. I am by no means an expert, but want so badly to see accuracy in footbag scoring.
So you would represent PDX drifter this way:
---//---c =10
How about Pdx whirl
---///-c = 9
And ripwalk
-/-/-c = 7
When I place in transitions through all planes I see an overlap for the dex. Like the under part of the dex in pdx drifter is a plane cross no?
--//--c = 8 where the third planes are taken already by dexes?
Show me how you see it. I think you are on to it.
Thanks,
edit: If we take out the full dex and put in a half dex and leave the planes alone, then the 3 tricks break down like this:
---/---c = 9 pdx drifter
---//-c = 8 pdx whirl
-/-/-c = 7 ripwalk
Does this look more reasonable?
well, although some people might do the dex spacially in the "inside" region because they bring their knee over, I still see the bag as transferring all the way over to the "outside" region, because of where the bag is in relation to the body right before the dex begins.
the way you write it in your edit is how I see it.
the way you write it in your edit is how I see it.
BRICK!
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
rfa::never give up::
nyfa
-
RRendsvig
- Multidex Master
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 12 Dec 2002 11:43
- Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
- Contact:
Dear FlexThis,
I think you are definately on to something -- and I think that because I have thought many of the same things (half dexes amongst others) and I think I was on to something. Unfortunately, nobody really listened, and I don't blame them since my notation is ... heavy.
I think the "farness" realtion is essential, but I think that taking half-spins as basic is a bad move. Instead, take 1/3 spins, as one can argue that the is approx. 120 degress between each the clippers (behind back) and from each clipper to the toe-area.
Further, I think that uptime/downtime are essential in evaluating "full dex-ness". For instance, I think that toe-set downtime illusion is a full dex, and so is a quantum op. toe-stall, but a mirage is only half a dex, and so is atomic op. toe stall. This generalizes naturaly.
I spend quite a lot of time thinking about this, and though it might be a tough read, I suggest you checikng out http://www.footbag.org/gallery/show/11217 where I argue for a general system. There are ceratin defects/lacks; for instance, there are no recursive syntactic construction rules for instance, but with some thought, this could be done.
Further, I have Absoluty no intentions in the document of giving add-points, but I do argue that certain moves the difficulty of which have been discussed much exemplify/lack key components -- this lead to a general charaterization of paradox (if I recall correctly).
Best regards,
Rasmus
I think you are definately on to something -- and I think that because I have thought many of the same things (half dexes amongst others) and I think I was on to something. Unfortunately, nobody really listened, and I don't blame them since my notation is ... heavy.
I think the "farness" realtion is essential, but I think that taking half-spins as basic is a bad move. Instead, take 1/3 spins, as one can argue that the is approx. 120 degress between each the clippers (behind back) and from each clipper to the toe-area.
Further, I think that uptime/downtime are essential in evaluating "full dex-ness". For instance, I think that toe-set downtime illusion is a full dex, and so is a quantum op. toe-stall, but a mirage is only half a dex, and so is atomic op. toe stall. This generalizes naturaly.
I spend quite a lot of time thinking about this, and though it might be a tough read, I suggest you checikng out http://www.footbag.org/gallery/show/11217 where I argue for a general system. There are ceratin defects/lacks; for instance, there are no recursive syntactic construction rules for instance, but with some thought, this could be done.
Further, I have Absoluty no intentions in the document of giving add-points, but I do argue that certain moves the difficulty of which have been discussed much exemplify/lack key components -- this lead to a general charaterization of paradox (if I recall correctly).
Best regards,
Rasmus
Rasmus Rendsvig
question - is a legover a half dex or a full dex? If it's a half dex, what is a butterfly? If it's a full dex, what is an illusion?
You gave double atw and double switch 2 full dexes. That suggests to me that a legover is a full dex. So double around the world and paradox double illusion are the same value then? Why not? Double atw is equal to the same value as paradox (non symposium) blizzard? Triple atw would be equal in value to paradox blurry blur? For that matter, if double switch is 2 full dexes, how many full dexes for double illusion?
You gave double atw and double switch 2 full dexes. That suggests to me that a legover is a full dex. So double around the world and paradox double illusion are the same value then? Why not? Double atw is equal to the same value as paradox (non symposium) blizzard? Triple atw would be equal in value to paradox blurry blur? For that matter, if double switch is 2 full dexes, how many full dexes for double illusion?
it seems leg over has been left out of the list, but fairy and atomic are listed as full dexes...Butterfly > /-c = 4
See the thread for reasons why paradox double illusion will be harder under the proposed ideas, than double around the world. There are little ascii drawings to help explain, using paradox drifter as an example.
I am bogged down at the moment with work, but I skimmed over the above.
RRendsvig - I will check it out. Thank you for taking notice this go around. I know how difficult it can be to break convention.
Jeremy - I was torn on the idea that legover would be a full dex or not. After having Matt point out the farness component, I am apt to believe that legover would be a half dex, which would make DATW a 1 1/2. Cameron is correct that with the farness component that pdx anything would be more difficult than it's none pdx version simply due to the farness of the bag. (Yes Matt we are coining farness - lol).
I will take a look at this thread again later and see if i can incorporate a new set of definitions that take into account everything that has been discussed so far. I feel it is important to get the basics right, so that moves can be constructed properly from day one. Sound good?
Thanks,
RRendsvig - I will check it out. Thank you for taking notice this go around. I know how difficult it can be to break convention.
Jeremy - I was torn on the idea that legover would be a full dex or not. After having Matt point out the farness component, I am apt to believe that legover would be a half dex, which would make DATW a 1 1/2. Cameron is correct that with the farness component that pdx anything would be more difficult than it's none pdx version simply due to the farness of the bag. (Yes Matt we are coining farness - lol).
I will take a look at this thread again later and see if i can incorporate a new set of definitions that take into account everything that has been discussed so far. I feel it is important to get the basics right, so that moves can be constructed properly from day one. Sound good?
Thanks,
Go out and shred already.
~Damon Mathews
~Damon Mathews
.! = toe stall : 1
c = clipper stall : 2
u = unusual surface stall : 2
d = duck | 1
v = dive | 1
Dexes
/ = half dex | 1
// = full dex | 2
/// = 1 ½ dex | 3
//// = 2 full dex | 4
///// = 2 ½ dex | 5
////// = 3 full dex | 6
Spins
s = half spin | 1
ss = full spin | 2
sss = 1 ½ spin | 3
ssss = 2 spin | 4
Additional Components
y = symposium | 1
Plane of travel (farness or position shift)
In the sport of footbag freestyle the bag’s position plays a large part in what defines a move, both in terms of identity, as well as, cleanliness of a move. Plane of travel will be defined by the bag’s path relative to the player’s stance during the performance of a move.
_ | _ | _ | _
The diagram above represents the 4 standard stalling positions. From Left to right: Left clipper, right toe, left toe, and right clipper. The “ _ “ represents the stalling positions, while the “ | “ represents the 3 planes between these positions.
For example if we look at left clipper set > right clipper stall, the diagram might look like this: ( “0â€
c = clipper stall : 2
u = unusual surface stall : 2
d = duck | 1
v = dive | 1
Dexes
/ = half dex | 1
// = full dex | 2
/// = 1 ½ dex | 3
//// = 2 full dex | 4
///// = 2 ½ dex | 5
////// = 3 full dex | 6
Spins
s = half spin | 1
ss = full spin | 2
sss = 1 ½ spin | 3
ssss = 2 spin | 4
Additional Components
y = symposium | 1
Plane of travel (farness or position shift)
In the sport of footbag freestyle the bag’s position plays a large part in what defines a move, both in terms of identity, as well as, cleanliness of a move. Plane of travel will be defined by the bag’s path relative to the player’s stance during the performance of a move.
_ | _ | _ | _
The diagram above represents the 4 standard stalling positions. From Left to right: Left clipper, right toe, left toe, and right clipper. The “ _ “ represents the stalling positions, while the “ | “ represents the 3 planes between these positions.
For example if we look at left clipper set > right clipper stall, the diagram might look like this: ( “0â€
Go out and shred already.
~Damon Mathews
~Damon Mathews
-
RRendsvig
- Multidex Master
- Posts: 281
- Joined: 12 Dec 2002 11:43
- Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
- Contact:
First off, I think you can to totally without the spin component if you regard the planes as spin-indicators. I find this natural, as you can simply the analysis of a moves by focusing on either spinning of the player OR (sideways) movement of the bag. All moves can be done with a straight set, but I'd really like to see a Spinning Clipper done with a staic player and a sideways moving bag. Therefore Is uggest that in thinking of this, you assume a straight set, and a spinning player.
Then
| | | c = clipper set far osis : 5
Further, I think that crossing the plaen is a weird way to think about it. Rather analyse a | as having crossed the space between two planes. Why? Because merely crossing the plaen between your toes shouldn't be rewarded! Then do a little dance turning left and right quickly between twotoe-stalls should be really hard?
Further, the toe mirage
|| / || ! = Toe Mirage : 6
Assuming you set the bag Straight, you'd have to set the bag, turn so the bag is in a clipper stalling position, then dex, and then turn all the way back for the bag to be stalled on toe. (if I understand you correctly). That's a lot of turning. Next time you play, try to set the bag straight and do a Mirage - how much do you really turn? Assuming your hip-joint was fixed, so you could only move your leg up and down (worst case scenario, would require the most changing of position to dex), how much would Have to turn?
Radically different: You do the Mirage dex in you toe zone, and you do Not cross an entire space between planes, so there are no |'s:
/! = Toe Mirage (=ATW) : 2
\\! = Illusion : 3
| / ! = Clipper Set Mirage : 3
| / | c = Clipper Set Drifter (= Pdx Drifter) : 4
The line illustrates one, I think, very important issue, namely Momentum. Drifter and Pdx Drifter are very much alike, but in the latter, you rotation has to be stopped and reversed. This should be taken into account.
And just to qualify my view of the dexes: I say that the dex of a Barfly is the "same dex played backwards" as a Barraging set, Illusion the "same" as Quantum, Pixie set the "same" as Leg-Over etc., assuming that all set a done purely uptime and all downtime components are done purely downtime. That a double dex done uptime is harder (read: must be done faster, thus require more skill) than the same double dex done spread out over both up- and downtime should definately be obvious.
Then
| | | c = clipper set far osis : 5
Further, I think that crossing the plaen is a weird way to think about it. Rather analyse a | as having crossed the space between two planes. Why? Because merely crossing the plaen between your toes shouldn't be rewarded! Then do a little dance turning left and right quickly between twotoe-stalls should be really hard?
Further, the toe mirage
|| / || ! = Toe Mirage : 6
Assuming you set the bag Straight, you'd have to set the bag, turn so the bag is in a clipper stalling position, then dex, and then turn all the way back for the bag to be stalled on toe. (if I understand you correctly). That's a lot of turning. Next time you play, try to set the bag straight and do a Mirage - how much do you really turn? Assuming your hip-joint was fixed, so you could only move your leg up and down (worst case scenario, would require the most changing of position to dex), how much would Have to turn?
Radically different: You do the Mirage dex in you toe zone, and you do Not cross an entire space between planes, so there are no |'s:
/! = Toe Mirage (=ATW) : 2
\\! = Illusion : 3
| / ! = Clipper Set Mirage : 3
| / | c = Clipper Set Drifter (= Pdx Drifter) : 4
The line illustrates one, I think, very important issue, namely Momentum. Drifter and Pdx Drifter are very much alike, but in the latter, you rotation has to be stopped and reversed. This should be taken into account.
And just to qualify my view of the dexes: I say that the dex of a Barfly is the "same dex played backwards" as a Barraging set, Illusion the "same" as Quantum, Pixie set the "same" as Leg-Over etc., assuming that all set a done purely uptime and all downtime components are done purely downtime. That a double dex done uptime is harder (read: must be done faster, thus require more skill) than the same double dex done spread out over both up- and downtime should definately be obvious.
Rasmus Rendsvig
Recognizing the amount of effort to learn the components, and the number and order of components, and the relationship between the components.
Just because toe stall is listed as a 1, and a clipper as a two, doesn't mean that clipper is twice as hard, just more difficult.
In all reality, different sections of a trick may be weighted much more than others. The stall portion of a trick could be a very tiny part of the tricks overall difficulty. The tricks difficulty score could be but a fraction of a total scoring algorithm.
Just because toe stall is listed as a 1, and a clipper as a two, doesn't mean that clipper is twice as hard, just more difficult.
In all reality, different sections of a trick may be weighted much more than others. The stall portion of a trick could be a very tiny part of the tricks overall difficulty. The tricks difficulty score could be but a fraction of a total scoring algorithm.
-
Zac Miley
- Post Master General
- Posts: 5953
- Joined: 04 Jun 2006 12:11
- Location: Kansas City, MO
- Contact:
Completely agree.Tsiangkun wrote:Recognizing the amount of effort to learn the components, and the number and order of components, and the relationship between the components.
Just because toe stall is listed as a 1, and a clipper as a two, doesn't mean that clipper is twice as hard, just more difficult.
In all reality, different sections of a trick may be weighted much more than others. The stall portion of a trick could be a very tiny part of the tricks overall difficulty. The tricks difficulty score could be but a fraction of a total scoring algorithm.
Jay (8:06:01 PM): Bu-bu-buu-buug--Looks up, and the feeling goes away like a sneeze-bu-buuuh-BULLLSHITTT
Jay (8:06:14 PM): *wipes bellybutton*
Jay (8:06:14 PM): *wipes bellybutton*