30th IFPA World Footbag Championships 2009 Berlin

Jorden · Post by **Jorden** » 02 May 2009 12:09

Paulsator wrote:There will be no price money.

Lemme get this straight...

The largest scale footbag event of the year, our best hope at promoting the sport, with the World's best talent encouraged to show up...

...and you're saying there's nothing at stake??!!

You're asking North American players to pay 2000 dollars for one week in Germany with no financial reward for their training and motivation?

Can any organization or sponsor possibly take us seriously?

Senor Grommet · Post by **Senor Grommet** » 02 May 2009 12:55

This is nothing new. Last year, event winners didn't even make back their entry fees. We've always played for the glory of being the best, not for the gratuitous amounts of money we've won.

ednie · Post by **ednie** » 02 May 2009 14:05

hey guys,

I am really supporting for you guys putting on worlds, I signed up immediately when i saw it and paid immediately even though its really really expensive, even for me coming from Australia.

If there is no prize money, and i don't know what you will put in the prize pack then i'm not sure if it needs to be 90 euros. Footbaggers arent rich and more or less everyone i've spoken to in prague and online has said that they are put off by how expensive it is.

But I am going to be there, and i will prepare a lot for the IFPA certified instructors course and i am really looking forward to meeting lots of great footbaggers.

Thanks,

Dan Ednie

krawallier · Post by **krawallier** » 02 May 2009 17:42

Lemme get this straight...

Jorden
...

1) ...and you're saying there's nothing at stake??!!

....

2) Can any organization or sponsor possibly take us seriously?

__________

Dan

3) ... even though its really really expensive, even for me coming from Australia.

If there is no prize money, and i don't know what you will put in the prize pack then i'm not sure if it needs to be 90 euros. Footbaggers arent rich and more or less everyone i've spoken to in prague and online has said that they are put off by how expensive it is.

this is several things that come together here. i'll try to reply to each of them seperately...

1) there is a lot at stake: the world title in a sport you are spending endless amounts of time playing, practising and competing - at its official world championships. thats nothing? i always thought it doesn't get much better.

apart from the past worlds in europe there has never been a european footbag tournament with prize money. as far as i know, the efc concesus has always been that there should be no prize money at european tournaments. the basic reasoning behind it is simple: there is not much money involved in footbag, so taking some of the money from the little budgets available to tournaments as prize money means taking money away from the general tournament - and creating a financial motivation for winning tournaments, giving the judges athlethic decisions a financial meaning. causing financial grief and bitterness for athlethic failure. that is a very high price to pay. the underlying principle is the basic idea behind sports and athlethics: you play and compete to be the best. is this true for the nba? the nfl? the german soccer league? of course not. thats why most people involved consider it business, not athlethics. is that wrong? probably not - there is millions being made with these athlethes, so they deserve their share. this is not where we're at. we're not making money. and i don't think the past world championships have created any profits. so we're not earning money because of your talent, we're not exploiting you or anything.
as i said. at the past european worlds there has been prize money. as said by jeremy, you were talking sums that must have felt more like an insult than much help at financing a week overseas or making a living from it.

this year we had three choices.

the first choice is technically illegal, and doesn't create a big pot anyways: everybody pays their normal fees, those who compete for prize money pay an extra fee, which is the exclusive source of income for prize money. firstly thats "paris-mutuel" gambling. it's illegal, but whatever if you tell nobody, you might get away with it. so your extra fee determines how much you can win? i don't need to give examples to explain the problem? sounds like a fun game? it means that those who hope for winning prize money have to pay more. either they have to pay a lot more, to win a lot, or they pay little more to win 5 extra bucks. great. really does sound like gambling to me.

option two.
the registration fee is 90 euros flat for everyone. that's very tightly calculated. very. i'll say more about that later. as mentioned before, most people feel that it is a lot of money for tournament registration. but it only covers certain costs. it is not a source of income. financing prize money from the registration fees, means charging even more money from everbody else. no good idea.
a different idea that is connected to it is finding a sponsor for prize money - but hey, money sponsored for the tournament is included in the same calculation as the registration fees -which means, in the end, that your taking it away from the players again, that the general registration fee could have been lower otherwise. also the registraion fees, are only one of the many points in the total budget.

option three.
fuck prize money.

so thats what we did, because if we offered prize money, it shouldn have been enough to be worthy, but a justifiable amount in respect to the general budget, registration fees and everything else. we din't consider this possible for this years worlds.

2) i have never been to a footbag tournament in the US or canada, so what i am writing is based on my experience in europe and hearsay, blog entries and videos. correct me if i am wrong, excuse my interpretations.

i have only been to three to four footbag tournaments that were remotely to be taken seriously from the non-footbag world. footjam twice ( i wasn't there the other times, i assume they were on par though), euros in copenhagen and vienna. from what people told me, gfo05 in berlin might belong to that group also. none of them offered prize money. press people don't ask for it either sponsors won't either. they dn't give a fuck. they do if you can win 10000 for the first prize. or a million. but 143 dollars and 21 cents? no way. you better don't tell them. they care for nice images, good stories, good presentation, a professional feeling for the tournament/event as a whole. we do want to be taken seriously. thats why we focus on delivering just what i listed. and we focus on delivering a good experience for all the participants. because in the end, that's why we're doing it. that's why we're working our asses off, instead of working our jobs, studying... whatever. i don't want anyones pity, i just want to make clear that we are doing everything but earning money with this.

3) 90 euros is a lot of money. we are very aware of this. but remember, with exchange rates from two years ago, it actually is about the same as it always was. with the crisis and the exchange rates i'm sure it feels like twice the amount now, especially for NA players. this is very unfortunate, but there is not much we can do about it.

just a reminder. for the same price, in the last years you got:

no lunch, or something really horrible.
no breakfast
no drinks or sometimes bottled water, water from the bathroom 250 meters aways in the catacombs of a stadium
no fruit or 1 apple.
no crowd/ audience
virtually no playtime in the media
no music for shred
no event locations all within less than 1km.
no disciplines included
... can't think of more now.
_____

for the same price as last year,
you'll get:

lunch for six days,
breakfast for six days,
water
fruit all day
an actual finals venue, with an actual audience, that appreciates your performance - because we take care, that the surroundings fit. no finals in a horribly lit gym. no club with 300 footbaggers and noone else. this is for both net and freestyle by the way.
djs everyday, so the freestylers won't have to listen to the same ipod or routine music all the time.
no need for public transport
athlethic conditions that our sport deserves.
real parties
high quality event merchandise.
play all the disciplines you want at no extra cost.
more i can't think of now.

if you only paid for the food we offer yourself, that itself would easily sum up to 70-80 euros. every day you would have to take care of finding food and finding the time to eat. so you pay as much as the last years, but you have way less extra costs and way less hassle.

_______
our focus is to ensure a great week for all the participants. for the best of the best as well as novices. of course footbaggers aren't rich, we're not rich either. with the registration fee you are only paying a part of what you get at the torunament. most of what you get is financed from other sources.

we very much want the best players of the world to come. of course, we very much want you to come. if money is the question i hope you can organize yourself an external sponsorship that finances your trip - like wiktor & gosia did two years ago. this is something that only the bet players in the world can do - because athlethic excellence and performance of course are worth actual money - in a business world. so to make money from it, i think that's the way to go (and a way you went before... if i remember correctly you were sponsored to go to helsinki in 05, no?)
_______

i really hope i managed to explain our reasons for how we did things. i did my best for the moment, its 3:30 am after celebrating my birthday now. i just wanted to reply quicky to these remarks. i'll re-read tomorrow and try to answer questions and things. sorry for typos, weird english and unfinished thoughts. off to bed for now.

max

footjam_heger · Post by **footjam_heger** » 03 May 2009 05:50

great sumup max. thanks alot. I cant wait to spend a crazy week in berlin!

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 03 May 2009 10:25

Jorden wrote:Can any organization or sponsor possibly take us seriously?

Honestly, I'm having trouble taking you seriously. It seems like all you do these days is show up to complain how lame modified is, or how lame Worlds is. Do you do anything to make either better? I think you've just been spoiled by being flown out to too many tournaments. Do you have any idea what kind of work goes into running a tournament, much less a tourney as big as Worlds? I'd like to see you successfully run a small local tournament before you start criticizing the people who volunteer to run Worlds.

Paulsator · Post by **Paulsator** » 03 May 2009 11:50

what ken and max said.
first think, then talk. please.

EVERYONE REGISTER NOW AND DONT FORGET TO PAY THOSE EXORBITANT FEES! I PROMISE YOU WONT REGRET IT!!!!

looking forward to seeing all of ya in Berlin!

ednie · Post by **ednie** » 03 May 2009 12:27

Thanks alot for clearing it up.
I did really think before writing it. And i wasnt writing from just my own view, it was a general concern. But I think more people will register now.

See everyone in berlin

Dan

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 04 May 2009 02:18

Since I'm not going I'm not sure if I have any place commenting, but I won't let that stop me

I just wanted to say that after events at previous worlds, choosing option 1 (only having some players pay fees for prize money) - if illegal would probably result in a very stern response from the IFPA and the possibility of even removing support for the event. Tournaments who run events that have any type of illegal behaviour sanctioned by the organisers run the very real risk of never having another IFPA sanctioned event in their city (or at least not for a long period of time).

Given how much money I make out of playing footbag by using titles like "Tasmanian Champion" (of two, and the other guy isn't guiltless), with hardly any effort for that matter, anybody who can't make significantly more money from having the title of "world champion" than is offered as prize money at past events has probably tried to keep it a secret. If you win, go home, write a short press release and send it to your local paper and tv station, do an interview with them, make sure they print some kind of contact details and that you do lots of demos for people (even if you don't) and you're bound to get a bunch of paid demos - usually very easy and very well paid. I was once paid $900 to do 2 30 minute demos at the same place where I have my public kick each week, at the same time when I have that weekly kick, and one of which was called off because it was too windy - so that ended up being $900 for doing half an hour of what I usually do every week for free for 2 hours. That's the sort of easy money you earn from putting about 2 minutes in to promoting yourself - and this is me, an average player with no world titles. If whoever wins first place likes, I will get you some demos in your home town from the arse end of Australia - but if I do then I'm taking a 75% cut.

sergio · Post by **sergio** » 04 May 2009 04:27

I didn't know the pari mutuel system was illegal.. Are you sure about that Max?

Anyway, just want to share my story about prize money at last year's worlds. I had just healed from an injury and could just train a week for worlds. I knew I wasn't at the top of my form so I didn't want to compete in many events. I only registered for routines and circle contest with the prize money option. I thought that my chances to get a podium in routines were extremely slim and chose to apply for prize money mainly for circle contest which I've won. I thought 'cool, good thing i applied for prize money'! Turned out there was no money for circle contest, just for routines, doubles and shred 30 ; and that info was not dispatched beforehand.

I think (not sure) that Damian didn't even cover his registration fees with what he earned for winning routines..

Like Max said, a 200$ check for the world champion does not give more credibility to footbag, on the contrary. Because footbag is not professional, not very developed compared to other sports and almost not covered in the media, a prize money system would indirectly result either in taking more money from competitors or in having a pari mutuel system that apparently is illegal and which makes it impossible to know how much you might earn (usually not much at all).

Edit: and if the registration fees really cover everything Max listed than this year's worlds would by far be the cheapest I've ever attended (for the record, I've only been to Frankfurt 2006 and Prague 2008 so it's not that meaningful but still!)

krawallier · Post by **krawallier** » 04 May 2009 04:35

sergio wrote:I didn't know the pari mutuel system was illegal.. Are you sure about that Max?

thats what steve told me - i think it is illegal for us because it is gambling, and we don't have a license. if we had a license we could do it. but do we really want to handle footbag tournaments like horse racing?

colefieldhouse22 · Post by **colefieldhouse22** » 04 May 2009 07:20

I am supposed to be in retirement from modified for the next couple of weeks, but...

Very well said Ken. Thank you

Thank you so much to all of you who are volunteering so much of your time to put on such a huge event for footbag.

acxel22 · Post by **acxel22** » 06 May 2009 17:10

I also tought 90 euros was expensive, but when I tought about lunch and breakfast I tought it was cheap.

I heard good things about Berlin organisers, and look forward to live it!

boyle · Post by **boyle** » 07 May 2009 18:14

I think the price is quite reasonable, considering how much is covered inside the package. I have never been to worlds (or overseas at all for that matter), so this is a very exciting experience for me. I have registered already and I can't wait.

As Jeremy was saying, it is very easy to make money from doing demos at schools and festivals or wherever else, it's also very easy for your local paper to write an article saying "..."star" footbag player does..." or something stupid like that.

I don't think anyone plays footbag to make money, so why should the pinnacle event of the sport focus on making money.

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 08 May 2009 09:05

As Jeremy pointed out, you can make money after Worlds by saying something like: "I was the highest ranked Australian competitor at Worlds this year." You can also make money beforehand by busking with a sign that says: "raising money to compete at World Champs in Berlin, and represent Australia." Or something to that effect.

Kljopa · Post by **Kljopa** » 08 May 2009 09:36

C-Fan wrote:A You can also make money beforehand by busking with a sign that says: "raising money to compete at World Champs in Berlin, and represent Estonia." Or something to that effect.

Thats what im going to try and do and then hike to Berlin :roll:

yyz · Post by **yyz** » 16 May 2009 12:21

I need to ask this!!!!!! How many worlds net compitions have any of you been involved with???? Masters net has been and always will be seperate from both intermediate and open. Its only criteria is that you be old. You will accomplish one thing by holding to this request. There will sadly be no real masters division this year. You have taken the interest and the fun out of this years event already(for me). Please reconsider this rediculous requirement. ted f

krawallier · Post by **krawallier** » 16 May 2009 19:20

yyz wrote:I need to ask this!!!!!! How many worlds net compitions have any of you been involved with???? Masters net has been and always will be seperate from both intermediate and open. Its only criteria is that you be old. You will accomplish one thing by holding to this request. There will sadly be no real masters division this year. You have taken the interest and the fun out of this years event already(for me). Please reconsider this rediculous requirement. ted f

sorry ted. i'm personally not involved in the net scheduling and discipline requirements, but those who are, are world champions, multiple tournament organizers and experienced competitors.
but i'll try to give you an answer from an organizers and serious competitors point of view.

top priority is avoiding scheduling problems. we honestly don't give much about how things were handled in the past if they caused problems. as said before, this is the world championships, not little league or pick up games. there just is a logical discrepancy between the (footbag) definition of intermediate and masters, which forbids people to compete in both.

and we honestly have no need for people clogging up scheduling and pools because they "feel like" playing literally every discipline. to prevent this from happening, competitors have to set priorities. period. this makes life easier for EVERYONE but some single individuals.
anyways, we do have hope people will still enjoy our tournament even though they're not allowed to be kicked out in first rounds from multiple disciplines simultanously.

Paulsator · Post by **Paulsator** » 17 May 2009 04:26

Hi Everyone,

Worlds 2009 in Berlin is only 63 days away from us, and here's the latest news.

http://www.footbag.org/worlds2009/

http://www.footbag.org/events/show/1226679678

______________________
1. Accommodation

The East Side City Hotel is booked out.

But don't worry yet! There are still beds left at our budget options:
Be quick and reserve at Die Fabrik or Hostel X-Berger.
The Fabrik has about 15 beds left, X-Berger about 30. They are both
located within 2 minutes walk to the event site, literally!
Check the map at www.footbag.org/worlds2009/

Both offer beds with shared bathrooms, hence prices are reasonably low.

For those on an even tighter budget, we also offer the gym option, but remember, it's by far the least comfortable option, it's further away, and you'll have to use public transport every day to get to the event site. Warning: it can take around 45 minutes each way.

Don't hesitate and reserve your spot now!

______________________
2. Registration

http://www.footbag.org/registration/reg ... 1226679678

If you are going to Worlds, you *MUST* pre-register by July 9th, and
you *MUST* pre-pay your registration by July 9th! THERE WILL BE NO
EXCEPTIONS. We will start doing the seeding and pools on July 10th. So
if you don't register *and pay* by July 9th, you cannot compete. If you
are just coming as a guest/sideline shredder, you can wait to pay until
you arrive on-site, but you still *MUST* pre-register by July 9th.

For basically the same price as every year, these World's we offer you a heck of a lot:

* free breakfast, Monday-Friday;
* free warm lunch (including vegetarian option), Sunday-Saturday;
* free Worlds T-shirt, free pair of PF shorts, free water, and free fruit;
* free entrance to all official events, parties, and more!

2.1 Pre-Payment:

Again, we require pre-payment by either PayPal or Bank Transfer by
the deadline of July 9th. This date is coming fast, please register
and pay now! If you already registered, but did not pay, you might as
well have not registered. So please pay at the same time as you register.

We prefer PayPal because we can confirm your registration automatically,
but you may find Bank Transfer cheaper in many EU countries. Either way,
the fees are small compared to the convenience of confirming your
registration well in advance of July 9th.

Pay early because -- remember -- if you haven't paid by the deadline of
July 9th, you won't compete!!! There will be no exceptions. This is very
serious.

2.2 German payment instruction error:

For the Germans who tried to pay via Bank Transfer but had problems:

Wer per BankÃ¼berweisung zahlen wollte und an einer falschen Kontonummer gescheitert ist, sollte es umgehend erneut versuchen, und zwar mit dieser (richtigen!) Kontonummer: 326259900. Danke!

Please remember, you must always make sure any bank transfers have
the full "memo" as shown on the online registration page when you choose
Bank Transfer.

2.3 PayPal delay -- please don't close the window too early:

Finally, if you pay using PayPal, please *please* wait after you pay for
about 5 seconds. Do *not* close the PayPal window until you see a final
confirmation page from *footbag.org* telling showing you your registration
form details and with the footbag.org logo at the top.

If you close the window too early after paying, we won't know you paid!

You will always get an e-mail telling you if we confirm your payment,
so please make sure your member profile's e-mail address is correct:
http://www.footbag.org/members/editprofile

______________________
3. Promotion Campaign

The first 10000 Flyers have arrived and we already handed out more than 4000 at the May First celebrations in Berlin. Check out the photos at http://www.footbag.org/worlds2009 in the media section!

More large-scale events are in sight, and we'll keep spreading the news about Worlds in Berlin!

______________________
4. Video Contest

Watch the trailer:
http://www.vimeo.com/4675924
(best in HD, in fullscreen mode and with your stereo connected)

Fame, Honor & Prizes.

Produce your own original footbag video & send it in to become a part of this year's Worlds Video Contest! You can enter even if you can't personally attend.

The video contest is going to be held at a beautiful former cinema, that has been redone as a club, and reopens its doors for us as a cinema: The LIDO. Of course the screening will be followed by a party.
Show us your original footbag video - something we haven't seen before: be it a nice plot, amazing camera work, historical footbag footage, amazing skills - you name it.

Please also be sure to follow the technical requirements listed online.

More Information on the Video Contest is to be found at:
http://www.footbag.org/worlds2009/
then click on the player's section > video contest.

______________________
5. We're looking forward to having you here!

See you soon,

love,

your FC Footstar Berlin e.V.

http://www.footbag.org/worlds2009/
http://www.footbag.org/events/show/1226679678

krawallier · Post by **krawallier** » 02 Jun 2009 14:05

from our contingent, at the hostel xberger there is only about 20 beds left. our reservations last only until mid- june, after that, there is nothing blocked for footbaggers anymore.

if you're coming to worlds and haven't booked your accomodation yet, don't wait!

the hostel is literally accross the street from the event site, and they have the cheapest beds of all our accomodation options (besides the gym, of course)

beds are between 12 and 14 â‚¬ a night!

DON'T WAIT AND RESERVE YOUR BED NOW, BEFORE EVERYTHING IS BOOKED OUT.

http://www.hostelxberger.com/eng