Why don't Americans have universal healthcare?

Pengu · Post by **Pengu** » 17 Jun 2007 22:14

Isn't it a fundamental right to be able to live a healthy life without having to worry about whether or not you can afford the care? Isn't it the government's responsibility to take care of it's citizens?

As a Canadian, the HMO system is foreign to me and I often forget this when I recommend people to go visit a doctor in the health and injuries forum. No wonder people are turning to the internet to ask for help. When I'm sick or injured, the first person I call is my GP.

Is it true that Americans need to be approved by HMO before they are treated? I know in Canada, people complain about the waiting lists of our social health care system, however the wait at least is fair and guaranteed when it becomes your turn. Isn't going through a 3rd party between you and the hospital, more of a hassel and prolongs the wait for treatment even further?

That's fucked up. I just watched Michael Moore's new film SICKO and that has leaked onto the internet and I vow to NEVER give up my Canadian citizenship. Even Cuba has free healthcare!

Pengu · Post by **Pengu** » 17 Jun 2007 22:31

Actually, I have to edit that post. When I get sick or injured, the first person I call is a 24hr nurse that is available by phone who evaluates all my symptoms and tells me whether my condition is serious enough to need care right away, or if I could wait until morning to see my GP.

PegLegHolly · Post by **PegLegHolly** » 17 Jun 2007 22:45

you have to be approved for health insurance in america. you can get health care without insurance but you definately pay out your ass. if someone without insurance were to get in a bad car wreck or accident... you would be treated at a hospital but you pay more than double of what insured people pay.

i would love free health care

Colin · Post by **Colin** » 18 Jun 2007 03:23

I don't know much about the US health system, but I gotta say that the concept of paying for something like the setting/casting of a broken leg is incredibly offensive to me. It's third-world. I mean, we need our legs. The state must recognize this fact. So come on, help us out.

That said, Canadian health care is in fucking shambles. My ankle will attest to that. It's practically impossible in my experience for a meek person to receive treatment for anything non-critical.

Caleb · Post by **Caleb** » 18 Jun 2007 04:47

The healthcare system in the US is very corrupt when dealing between insurance companies and physicians. A pharmacist's entire career anymore (outside of researchers), in this day and age is only begging insurance agents to treat a patient. Doctors and medicine manufacturers now take over the role of knowing the effects when combining medicines. And it is even projected that within the next 40 years, doctors will be obselete in the US. Their practice will solely be taken over by physicians assistants and the actual physician will only handle management duties and paperwork. Obviously there is a problem in any field when a person's entire 40+ hour work week is for filing paperwork. It loses sight of the actual purpose of these professionals, to help people.

Although, as a student that has been looking into med school briefly, I can say this. There's enough money being thrown around this mess of a system that the doctors are still taken care of. And the US still has the best hospitals and a large majority of the medical research going on in the world. I was warned when applying to and visiting schools, the future is entirely up for grabs. I could walk into med school now and spend 9 years after an undergrad of menacing work to only walk out a self-sufficient M.D. and realize I'm making as much as a used car salesman because the country I live in is adjusting to public healthcare. Which, for the care-giver, is just as much a crime to society as the alternatives.

My opinion could be because of a vast cultural difference across two cultures that technically aren't THAT different, or it could be because I am toying with the idea of seeking a career in medicine and I see the views of the opposing side . . . But healthcare is not a right in my opinion. Having someone serve and care for you is no more right than having someone else cook you dinner. In a perfect world, yes, everyone deserves to be fixed when they're broken. But because it involves another human being to work for you, I don't think healthcare should be a widely dispersed right of basic life. Sure the current system is an expensive rip off. But it's not a complete loss to scrap and change from foundation to top. The middle man doesn't need cut out, he just doesn't deserve anyone near as much of the middle as he's getting.

(I await Feary's reply, tearing me a new asshole.

)

janis · Post by **janis** » 18 Jun 2007 05:24

let me ask you a question, do you think that wealthier people are more deserving of healthcare? and why/why not?

imagine this "user pays" hypothetical situation: there are enough resources in the hospital to treat 1 liver transplant patient at a time. Now say your father has a desperate need for a transplant otherwise he will die. Also another, much wealthier, man is in a similar need for a transplant. Would you support the wealthier man getting the transpant, because he is wealthier? How far would you follow through on the "non-universal" healthcare ideology?

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 18 Jun 2007 05:37

Of all people who would tear up your post, I don't know why you expected me to. I was glad to see someone take the posistion you did.

The Canadian healthcare system works great as long as you only have a broken ankle or some other million dollar (Figurative) injury, but wait till you catch cancer or break your back or something and you'll be flying down to the US. Canada's system is great for the healthy, and terrible for the people who need healthcare most.

With that said, the US healthcare system is also in shambles, and I have absolutely no idea what to do with it.

Having someone serve and care for you is no more right than having someone else cook you dinner.

Bingo. If you want someone to serve you dinner, go to a restraunt and pay. Same goes for healthcare.

however the wait at least is fair and guaranteed when it becomes your turn.

I guess. What seems fair to me is everyone gets served on the spot, and you have to pay the proper amount for it later. Whether that amount is currently outrageously high in the US I honestly don't know. Having to wait in line while you're dying (Some eventually dying) is not fair to me at all.

That's fucked up. I just watched Michael Moore's new film SICKO and that has leaked onto the internet and I vow to NEVER give up my Canadian citizenship. Even Cuba has free healthcare!

And still, for reasons strictly practical, I'd rather be an American than a Cuban or Canadian. I don't actually dislike Micheal Moore, even though I feel inclined too, but I think you're getting too worked up over a system in your country that kinda sucks.

When I get sick or injured, the first person I call is a 24hr nurse that is available by phone who evaluates all my symptoms and tells me whether my condition is serious enough to need care right away, or if I could wait until morning to see my GP.

What's the most serious medical problem you've had and how old are you (If you don't mind my asking).

I mean, we need our legs. The state must recognize this fact. So come on, help us out.

lol.... Cmmmoonnn gov't. give me free shit.

Since when has it been the Government's job to pay for an accident that happened to you. Better yet, when has it been my job to pay for an accident that happened to you?

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 18 Jun 2007 05:43

http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/

Watch that video if you want to know how badly some Canadian's are gettin fucked over by big gov't.

Specifically interesting is the story about the lady whose cartiledge in her knee went out and went bone on bone, so they put her on the waiting list for 12-18 months and gave her a bunch of OC's for the pain, and then she got addicted because it's fucking synthetic heroin for God's sake and now she's back on the fucking waiting list to get into rehab! 6 month wait for rehab. When I failed two UA's in outpatient, I was in rehab three nights later. Sheeeit.

Also interesting is the Canadian guy helping Canadian's get treatment down in the US.

Caleb · Post by **Caleb** » 18 Jun 2007 06:17

Naa, Janis, I don't think healthcare should be a bidding system. In the situation you described, I don't think a wealthier man should get a liver transplant before someone else because he is wealthier. Or even if he pays more in order to be treated faster. I wouldn't agree with that. As it stands now, when you need a transplant of any kind, you go on a waiting list which is primarily chronologically based and somewhat based on need (Basically if someone has been waiting longer but it prevents a death to bump another critical case to the top. But that is an entirely different discussion.). This system is totally just. All I was saying is, I think that the new liver should be paid for by the patient and his/her insurance, not by the government.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 18 Jun 2007 06:29

Was my post deleted from this topic? Did anybody else see it, or did my post just not work?

janis · Post by **janis** » 18 Jun 2007 06:32

Caleb wrote:All I was saying is, I think that the new liver should be paid for by the patient and his/her insurance, not by the government.

And if these individuals are incapable of paying?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 18 Jun 2007 06:41

This is what I said before, although no doubt it was originally written with far more eloquence...

Phil Zuckerman (with Gregory Paul) argues that the reason the US is so religious compared with other countries is;

Because they are afraid and insecure. Arbitrary dismissal from a long held job, loss of health insurance followed by an extended illness, excessive debt due to the struggle to live like the wealthy; before you know it a typical American family can find itself financially ruined. Overwhelming medical bills are a leading cause of bankruptcy.

In part to try to accumulate the wealth needed to try to prevent financial catastrophe, in part to compete in a culture of growing economic disparity with the super rich, the typical American is engaged in a Darwinian, keeping up with the Jones competition in which failure to perform to expectations further raises levels of psychological stress. It is not, therefore, surprising that most look to friendly forces from the beyond to protect them from the pitfalls of a risky American life, and if that fails compensate with a blissful eternal existence.

The effect can be more direct. For instance, the absence of universal health care encourages the utilization of faith-based medical charities. The latter, as well intentioned as they are, cannot provide the comprehensive health services that best suppress mortality at all ages. But charities extend the reach of the churches into the secular community, enhancing their ability to influence society and politics, and retain and recruit members.

And this argument really extends beyond religious belief and encompasses the fact that US is also the fattest nation in the world, is the 4th highest drug using country (per capita) in the and has the highest amount of people in jail (per capita) in the world. Those social problems (obesity, drug addiction, and crime) can all be linked to insecurity, as is religion.

Now the individual argument for a user pays system might make sense, especially to capitalists, but the documented facts reveal a different picture, and I am happy to pay my taxes to pay for other people's medical problems just so I can live in a safer, more secure and more rational country.

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 18 Jun 2007 06:47

Way to fit that all in there J

Pengu · Post by **Pengu** » 18 Jun 2007 07:48

That said, the Canadian system does have it's flaws. Organ transplant lists are long and the wait tedious. It is why those with money travel to the US to skip these long waiting lists. However, on an ethical point of view, I support such a waiting list where no one is favoured and everyone treated equally - those with money have to wait just as long as those without.

The care when it becomes your turn, the care in Canadian hospitals is top-tier in Canada. We have some of the best children's and mental health hospitals in North America. When my daddy was sent to the hospital this past Christmas, everything was taken care of. No worries about whether or not the week-long stay and the drugs they were giving him and the millions of tests would break our bank. That kind of peace of mind is hard to argue.

The Canadian system thrives on preventative medicine, something that the HMO cannot accomplish due to costs. In the end, it costs less to treat a person due to early detection than to treat full-blown cancer. If people avoid the doctor unless they feel something is seriously wrong, that's when costs begin to skyrocket. So our doctors and nurses make less money than yours in the US, at least they can work their practice with helping people with the best care they can give instead of denying care for those who can't afford the best.

I'm 23, my most serious injury was a concussion awhile ago and a asthma attack from pneumonia. Both of which I was told to go to the hospital right away and the doctors treated me as soon as I was admitted by the triage nurse. For the concussion, I needed to be transported to another hospital for further tests, and they gave me a voucher for the cost of transportation by cab and had a cab waiting for me.

US citizens expect the government to pay for school for their children, they expect the government to pay for police and firefighters, why shouldn't they expect to have healthcare? People aren't willing to pay higher taxes? It becomes a matter of what's more important: more money or does the fear that a serious illness will bankrupt your family? Isn't it part of the constitution to feel safe?

I'm not saying the Canadian system is perfect. I've long been a proponent for a 2-tiered system so that those with money can pay for a shorter waiting period and less cramped hospitals. It has the advantage because a private hospital would also generate tax revenue which could then be fed into the public healthcare system. This would alleviate the waiting times of the public health system as well.

PegLegHolly · Post by **PegLegHolly** » 18 Jun 2007 07:57

Pengu wrote:US citizens expect the government to pay for school for their children, they expect the government to pay for police and firefighters, why shouldn't they expect to have healthcare? People aren't willing to pay higher taxes? It becomes a matter of what's more important: more money or does the fear that a serious illness will bankrupt your family? Isn't it part of the constitution to feel safe?

Most US citizens agree with you. Our government seems to have the problem of not always putting tax money where it is supposed to go. I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes if I felt that the extra money would go where it's said to go.

sanuke okumatzu · Post by **sanuke okumatzu** » 18 Jun 2007 11:42

America sucks balls, that's why.

HighDemonslayer · Post by **HighDemonslayer** » 18 Jun 2007 20:32

Universal healthcare wouldnt really be universal.

You would, no doubt, be required to abide by a list of government-approved lifestyle habits to qualify for coverage.

-n

janis · Post by **janis** » 18 Jun 2007 21:04

HighDemonslayer wrote:Universal healthcare wouldnt really be universal.

You would, no doubt, be required to abide by a list of government-approved lifestyle habits to qualify for coverage.

You already have to abide by the a "government-approved lifestyle habit" to qualify for coverage. What I mean by this is: you need to engage in a lifestyle habit that generates personal wealth in order to afford all the services that the government doesn't supply. The government is already dictating to you that you need to live your life by the capitalist/economic rationalist based ideology and the lifestyle that this imposes on you by the lack of state provided services.

There are many sound moral and economic reasons for providing accessible healthcare to all tax paying citizens, I will elaborate later.

habitat · Post by **habitat** » 18 Jun 2007 21:24

One time I got cellulitis and I went to a clinic. I told them I was homeless and they fixed me for free. And gave me antibiotics.

GO USA!!

BainbridgeShred · Post by **BainbridgeShred** » 18 Jun 2007 21:26

You're an inspiration to us all Mr. Randall