Footbag body types - 2009 the rise of tall skinny guy?

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 04 Feb 2009 17:13

I could be wrong about this because it's based on videos and maybe they are all short and even skinnier, but it seems to me that the top footbaggers in the world are becoming increasingly taller and skinnier. I've always thought that this would happen, as it seems like the best body type. Of course there are still plenty of exceptions, as there are in most sports - but if it is the best body type for footbag than the larger the footbag population gets the more that body type will dominate because hard and well disciplined practice will no longer be the deciding factor between competitors who all practice as hard and as well disciplined as each other.

Tall and skinny (but athletic) means that you have more time to perform tricks meaning it's easier for you to perform harder tricks. Look at the top 10 from worlds this year compared with 5 years ago.

Of course this could just be coincidence, we'll have to wait and see, but I'm making the prediction now anyway. Probably 2009 is too short a time period, but by 2019 I'm predicting the majority of players in the top 10 at the main events at worlds will be tall and skinny.

Not that this doesn't mean you can't be short and fat or some other combination and not get good at footbag (although obviously not actually fat, just stocky). I'm certainly going to keep playing despite this observation

Will Digges · Post by **Will Digges** » 04 Feb 2009 20:59

I think there is such a thing as being too tall and too skinny though. For example, I like David Clavens style much better than some of the tall skinny players, because he is evenly proportioned.

For some tall and skinny players their styles just don't look as good because their windows can be too big and everything seems too easy for them.

Style is a huge factor in deciding whether someone looks good while playing. It's not all about just hitting the tricks.

Thats just my opinion.

Ian Brill · Post by **Ian Brill** » 04 Feb 2009 21:08

Will Digges wrote:David Clavens

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 05 Feb 2009 06:27

When I saw this post, my mind automatically generated 2 lists. The first list was: who is tall and lanky and really good? The second list was: who are the best players in the world? I didn't particularly notice much overlap. It is also very possible that my list of best players in the world is influenced by the tournies I've recently attended, and videos I've seen.

Here's a list off the top of my head of top players in the world who aren't particularly tall and lanky:

Dave
Vasek
Johnny Suderman
Byrin Wylie
Evan Gatesman
Scott Bevier
Phil Morrison
Serge Kaldany

Then there are players who some people might consider tall and lanky, but not everybody would. Honza, Sergey, T-Pak and Damian might be in this group. I'm on the short side, and I don't consider these guys to be particularly tall or lanky.

Then there's the group that is clearly tall and lanky.

Olaf
Willie Digges
Justin Dale
Vandall
Chad

When I think of the list of my favorite players over the years, most of the people that come to mind aren't particularly tall or lanky:

Ryan M
Ahren G
Vasek
Takumi
Felix
Penske

As somebody who has been to multiple tournaments over the last year, including USO and Worlds, I just don't really see any emerging trend of tall players taking over. Jeremy: is your observation theoretical, or are you basing it on any events/results you have seen lately?

Will Digges · Post by **Will Digges** » 05 Feb 2009 11:58

I can definitely see a trend of tall and lanky players being able to hit lots of big and technical tricks, but it doesn't mean that it looks the best.

I'd rather see Vasek or Dave hit Nebula rather than a taller, lankier player.

PoisonTaffy · Post by **PoisonTaffy** » 05 Feb 2009 13:12

Last year's worlds request and sick 3 events were dominated by the extremely tall&skinny, both technical events that emphasize difficulty rather than style.

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 05 Feb 2009 13:35

IMO it is about proportion over tall or skinny.

For instance Penske is shorter, but thin. Pound for pound he is perfectly proportioned for footbag at his height and weight. Same for Vasek and Dave.

Some of the taller players like Chad may seem to have an advantage due to large windows etc... but actually they have to work just as hard if not harder due to the amount of energy needed to move those long legs around that tiny bag.

There was a study on Sports Science about basketball players seeming to float in the air when they dunk. Facts were that no matter how high or long they jumped the hang time was the same: 0.9 secs. This is gravity working. The bag is no different. Although it is set higher by taller players, good ole gravity makes it fall faster too. So it hits the ground at roughly the same time. Separated only by a small fraction.

So I say throw the timing advantage for taller players out the window.

Ultimately i think it goes back to practice. The best will be the best because they practice the most.

Another example: Michael Phelps stated that he trained 365 days a year in order to get in 2 extra practices a week over any other competition. It just so happens that he is also the tallest swimmer, which I find a coincidence.

dyalander · Post by **dyalander** » 05 Feb 2009 14:36

I guess I'd be one of the other exceptions - I'm tall and skinny but probably won't rise to the top in 2009

I think its not so much a matter of lots of tall and lanky players being good but rather that there seems to be more of us on the horizon than there used to be. Though that might just be that we're easier to see from a distance than shorter guys.

I think we might be seeing the very very early beginnings of a trend but its too early to tell, and given the relatively small amount of footbagers as a whole and the relatively low number of grassroots participants we have I'd say this sort of change would take a long, long time.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 Feb 2009 16:07

Sorry there seems to be a little confusion in this discussion.

I predicted that in 10 years time tall and skinny players will make up the majority of players in the finals at worlds. Clearly therefore it would be foolish to suggest that I think the majority of players *right now* are tall and skinny.

Given that tall and skinny players are not currently the majority, we must therefore accept that the majority of the best players right now are not tall and skinny.

This topic is about a perceived trend in the rise of tall and skinny players - so we're talking about relative terms. ie. there are a lot more really good tall skinny players now than there was 5 years ago. Indeed the ratio of tall and skinny players to not tall and skinny players appears to be moving towards the favour of tall and skinny. At the moment they are still a minority but becoming less of one.

In any such trend data, looking at specific individuals is relatively meaningless.

I would add that there are possibly a number of people missing from Ken's lists - especially some Polish and Finnish guys, but since I'm basing this on videos, perhaps they are not as tall as I have perceived.

I also wanted to point out that the prediction was about results at worlds, not about subjective things like who you think the best players in the world are, or whose style you like most. Those are things that are very hard to judge in a meaningful manner.

I hope we can re-direct the conversation towards my actual post, and not people's misunderstandings of my actual post. I apologise for my apparent inability to express myself in an understandable manner.

It's also important to note that I'm not suggesting that one day all the top players will be tall and skinny. In touch football there is a definite trend towards tall and skinny players, but certainly there are still plenty of players in the Australian side who are my build, and there is even the odd guy who looks a little over weight in top sides (but not the Aussie side) as well.

Will Digges · Post by **Will Digges** » 05 Feb 2009 18:27

In any such trend data, looking at specific individuals is relatively meaningless.

When I was mentioning specific individuals, I was speaking for everyone with the same body type. It was just an example.

I also wanted to point out that the prediction was about results at worlds, not about subjective things like who you think the best players in the world are, or whose style you like most.

When you talk about Worlds, Worlds in Europe and Worlds in North America would have very different results when taking body types into account.

Those are things that are very hard to judge in a meaningful manner.

I disagree, Style, form, and Appearance means a whole lot in most sports like Gymnastics, Figure Skating, Martial Arts, Diving, Snowboarding/Skiing, etc. I think it's fair to judge Footbag the same way, at least in routines for the most part.

If we didn't judge on Style and Form, then I would think Footbag is moving in the wrong direction.

And I'm not saying all tall and skinny players have bad styles and I'm not saying all the smaller body types have better styles. I think it's varies evenly.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 05 Feb 2009 18:44

Fair points, although you misunderstand my last quote.

Style and form are important in judging, but it's also incredibly important in judging not to let your own subjective opinions influence your judging. Clearly at this stage tournament directors or head judges should be giving the rest of the judges specific guidelines on these terms until the IFPA and IFC can construct good documents about this.

For an example - who has better style or form - Ryan Mulroney or Lon Smith? You may have a personal opinion on that, but if you're judging a competition you cannot allow that opinion to influence your judgements. Instead you should be saying things like "Lon looked off balance on his spinning" or "Ryan was too hunched over at times."

So the results for technical ability in a routine should definitely be based on essentially a subjective judgement of form and style, but only in a specific nature and in a well defined and accountable manner.

This is completely different to merely listing your favourite players based on style or form. At the last worlds in the finals there were a number of competitors whose style I do not subjectively like, but who I thought should be scored very well on their technical ability anyway. Judging Aus champs a few years ago somebody who at the time had very messy style did a fantastic routine to equally messy music. It certainly wasn't my place as a judge to say that I disliked the style and the music, only to say that the style worked very well with the music.

*Note that style and form should only indirectly affect artistic scores*

FlexThis · Post by **FlexThis** » 06 Feb 2009 09:09

I love you use of the word "should" Jeremy. As if you are 'the' authority on it all.

lol

Just an observation.

professor · Post by **professor** » 06 Feb 2009 10:31

I feel like being tall and skinny has it's advantages when it comes to trick difficulty, but disadvantages when it comes to string length. The inverse applies to shorter people.

I have no real scientific evidence of this, it's only based on an observation of different players.

I think the consequences of this will be Sick 1 & Sick 3 will be dominated by taller skinnier players and rippin run and routines will be dominated by short to average sized players.

Overall, I feel an average height and athletic build will still be the optimal body type for footbag. Although, I don't think body type has near the effect on skill that leg type does.

Post by **Zac Miley** » 06 Feb 2009 17:41

professor wrote:I feel like being tall and skinny has it's advantages when it comes to trick difficulty, but disadvantages when it comes to string length. The inverse applies to shorter people.

I have no real scientific evidence of this, it's only based on an observation of different players.

I think the consequences of this will be Sick 1 & Sick 3 will be dominated by taller skinnier players and rippin run and routines will be dominated by short to average sized players.

Overall, I feel an average height and athletic build will still be the optimal body type for footbag. Although, I don't think body type has near the effect on skill that leg type does.

Ben stole my words and made them better.

ThisIsFate · Post by **ThisIsFate** » 07 Feb 2009 13:41

After Vasek massed muscle, his style chanegd dramatically, and he dropped more than ever. =\

xpawel18x · Post by **xpawel18x** » 09 Feb 2009 11:58

I'm a short guy (5'4" last time I checked) I do feel like having longer legs would help with dexing tricks as I would have more time to land it back on my foot. But I think being short gives me more control over the bag tahan a tall person would have.

KBizzle · Post by **KBizzle** » 09 Feb 2009 13:39

Well I'm 6'1" and about 145 lbs. but I honestly don't feel like I have much more of an advantage than a shorter, stockier person. Although my legs are long it feels like it takes a lot more energy to move them around the bag. Just my opinion, though.

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » 09 Feb 2009 14:10

I agree with the last two posts - and I think that's why short people have dominated footbag in the past, and why we're seeing a change. Tall people need to work harder to get their basics down, so starting is more difficult and less play. Now we're starting to see more tall guys playing who have played for a while and have put in similar kind of hard work that the top short players put in - and that's why we're starting to see more really good tall guys. Height is a disadvantage to begin with and then an advantage later on (only out of the people who put in the hard work).

C-Fan · Post by **C-Fan** » 10 Feb 2009 05:40

Another thing that made me skeptical when I saw this thread is that I've been in the sport for 12 years, and based on my observations I don't feel like there has been a sudden rise in the number of good players who happen to be tall and lanky. Around the year 2000 some of the best players in the world (as in top 10) included Sunil, Chad, and Allan Haggett. All those guys are over 6 foot 2. Kenny Shults is also pretty tall and lanky. I dunno, I just don't see that much of a change in the number of tall players in the upper echelon.

Abe · Post by **Abe** » 21 Feb 2009 23:33

Does anyone know how tall Juho is?