PDX Blender vs. Barrage

[Zac Miley]

So this is probably the weirdest debate ever, and it's only really occurring in my head I think. I was thinking about these tricks today (spurred by a problem in my head about the value of dexterities when calculating the difficulty of a trick), and I can't decide if a perfectly executed barrage, or pdx blender is harder.

It's pretty much accepted that pdx blender is more difficult because of its add value, but really, what's hard about it? Here's a list of things that I think are hard about pdx blender:

- semi-blind (like all osis moves)
- the set/pivot

Is there anything else? The dex is fairly easy, and the osis just falls into place afterwards.

Really, the only thing that can make a barrage hard are the dexes. There is hardly any room for error, and the majority of barrages (unless you're Nick Landes or Bevier) are the. A clean barrage can't be started too early, because you'll just slap the bag out of the way on the second dex, and it can't be started too late because the bag will drop too fast and it'll be the.

What are your opinions? Preferably opinions from people who can do both tricks.

I know it's sort of a pointless debate but it was a huge one in my head, and it's still not resolved.

[C-Fan]

The day after Worlds 04 ended, I got in a shred at the Tam Tams with Yax, Sebastien D, and Vasek. During the shred, Sebastien hit paradox chainsaw massacre, which blew my mind. Impressed, I asked him what was the hardest trick he could hit. He responded: "either pdx torque or pdx blender."

While I couldn't surpress an incredulous laugh, I realized he was honest, and there was a footbag truth in his reply. For a player who isn't good at osis tricks, pdx blender is probably harder than alpine blurrage, or whatever other ridiculous non-osis trick you want to name. Similarly, there are players who made it into BAP over the years with sick clipper games, who could barely hit double ATW.

So is barrage harder than pdx blender? The answer will have to be personal opinion, and will vary by player.

[Zac Miley]

You're very right, but I think everyone can agree Sebastien has a different game from most people. It is very subjective of course, but like in all debates, you try to eliminate that.

Hypothetically, a player with average crank who puts equal effort into learning barrage and pdx blender, which do you think would come quicker?

Which trick is easier for players who have average osis and average toes?

[Corey]

right now I cant hit pdx blender I have hit barrage a few times a while ago but I am not sure of the cleanliness.

needless to say i voted barrage

edit: i should mention osis is one of my "favorite" and i drilled it into my muscle memory hehe when i am 90 i will still be' able to' hit alternating osises

[Zjeezy]

I agree with Ken that it is very subjective from player to player. For myself pdx blender is way easier than a normal barrage, let alone a pdx barrage. I can do both, on both sides, but the barrage is probably thin half of the time.

Hypothetically, a player with average crank who puts equal effort into learning barrage and pdx blender, which do you think would come quicker?

I think for this question the barrage would come quicker. It probably wouldn't be clean early on, but there is more room for error with a barrage then with a blender. I mean how many the blender have you ever seen? Blender takes more of a mastery of the trick. yes, you can get lucky, but to do it well it takes proper setting and timing on pivot.

just my thoughts on it.

[Zac Miley]

I think it's interesting that you say blender has less margin for error, Zach. You're right, there are hardly any the blenders, which in my mind would mean that it has more margin for error.

You really can't mess anything up when you're doing a barrage, or you'll the a dex/your bag will be on the ground. To me, that is less margin for error.

You can still get off a clean pdx blender with a less-than-perfect set, right? You nailed it on the pivot though - that's definitely the hard part. But is it harder than squeezing both clean barrage dexes in?

[Reid]

They are the same in difficulty, and that is the bottom line.

[Zjeezy]

I was more referring to the fact that if you drop on a blender, you either didn't dex fast enough or you missed the osis.

With a barrage, you can start the dex too slow, or too late, or miss a dex, or miss the catch, or hit it away dexing. I just feel there are more ways to mess it up than a blender.

On a side note, mine is subjective. I am good at blenders and terrible at barrages

[Kimbe.]

What? Seriously, I can't see the problem here. I always thought of barrage as a really basic trick with a simple mid/uptime hop and one and a half dex, while pdx blender is the more complicated version of blender. Yes, you can the a barrage but same goes for an illusion or even a whirl, which still doesn't make these tricks hard?

Also I'd like to believe that a majority of players learn barrage way before pdx blender because barrage is looked upon as a basic trick. I'm talking about clipper set barrage here, toe barrage being a bit harder. But yes, pdx blender is harder than barrage, especially if you're gonna play out of it with something else than an osis or infinity and not only hit the single trick.

[Zac Miley]

We are talking about the single trick, and assuming that each one is perfectly executed.

It sounds like we're agreeing, Zach, but I'm not sure.

[Ners]

Are we talking about Toe Barrage here? I'll assume that that's the case since it's harder then Clip set Barrage. Let's also assume that we have two identical players with average ankle crank - one of them is learning Barrage and the other one Pdx Blender (and only those tricks).

Both players have to learn one delay (setting and catching) - Barrage players need one Toe, and Pdx Blender guy needs one Clipper/Osis ending on Clipper. I think we can safely say, that learning Clipper is much harder then learning toe - you need to learn how to balance in a weird position and the cushioning motion is really nothing like anyone would ever try before. On the other hand Toe set motion is not so unnatural, and can be picked up fairly quickly.

The Pdx Blender player has another disadvantage in the fact that he not only has to learn to set the bag straight up, but also to do the hip pivot/footwork to position his body in a way that will let him perform the Far Whirl dex. The Toe Barrage players will also need to twist his hips a little bit to prepare for the first dex, but it should be much easier to learn.

What's also difficult for the Pdx Blender Guy is that he has to learn the catch, which is not exactly a standard Clipper, since in basically all harder downtime Osis moves the bag touches the foot in what could be referred to as the Back position (something between Clipper and Frigidosis), or even complete Frigidosis (think Vaseks Gauntlets/Marius).

So by analyzing the delays needed we can already see, that the players that is trying to learn Toe Barrage has a much easier task.

If we take dexes into consideration, on the first glance the difference is clear - two dexes should be harder then one dex most of the time. And it seems to be the case in our situation. Barrage needs more energy and more precision - with Pdx Whirl dex you can throw your leg around in a wide arc, rising it to the highest point in a almost swirl type "heel-touching-ass" style. That gives you more room for error.

So in the dexes division, the Barrage players would need more time to get his motions down. Still I don't think that is enough to consider his trick harder to learn from stratch then Pdx Blender. So in my opinion, if the only criteria would be the difficulty of learning a trick, Pdx Blender is harder.

We could also think about which trick takes more energy after you master the components - so basically how many contacts can you do before you become exhausted. Pdx Blender only uses one leg, so a player will get tired faster. With the other trick, you have to rise you knee higher and do a double dexing motion which takes a lot of energy. This makes it hard to make a decision. If we look at the World Records list we can see that the contacts are:

Barrage - 15 - Johny Suderman
Pdx Blender - 24 - Jim Penske

I took it from footbag.org so I'm not sure if it's up to date. The Polish records are Barrage - 20 and Pdx Blender 18, both by Norek. I would say, that if a player would be able to dex those Barrages efficiently, the fact that he would work both legs alternatively would let him pump more contacts then with Pdx Blender, where only one leg does all the work. I'm not completely sure about it though.

[Zac Miley]

We're talking about clipper set barrage, the easiest version. Sorry.

I don't think learning the trick is the best measuring stick for difficulty, but it is a good starting point.

I can see how learning barrage is easier to learn, but is it easier to do when you know both tricks?

In the middle of a run, are you more worried about dropping a barrage or a pdx blender?

[Ners]

You have to choose some kind of criteria to answer a question about which trick is easier. You don't seem to have such criteria. When you ask which trick is easier when you know both, what do you mean by saying that you know both? If you mean you can hit them 10 out of 10 tries then they are equally easy and you cannot say which one is harder. If you ask which one are you worried about dropping, the answer would probably be: the one you have practiced less, and have a land/drop ratio that is worse then the other one. That doesn't answer the question which trick is harder either.

[Zac Miley]

This is why I'm confused

When you break down the components of the trick, they're completely different. Each one has difficult parts, and I think the difficult parts in each one are fairly similar in difficulty.

By 'know' each one I meant that it was possible for a hypothetical player to do a pdx blender, and possible for the hypothetical player to do a barrage.

[Ners]

When you break down the components of the trick, they're completely different. Each one has difficult parts, and I think the difficult parts in each one are fairly similar in difficulty.

They are similar, but can still be compared. Which is what I did in my first post, reaching a conclusion that Pdx Blender is harder when you take into consideration the difficulty of learning a trick and how much energy you need to hit it. You seem to disagree, saying that the tricks are similar, but you don't offer any arguments in favor of your opinion. Do you think Barrage is harder then Pdx Blender, and if so, why?

[Zac Miley]

No, I don't think barrage is harder. If one has to be harder, far blender is. I don't see a huge difficulty difference like most people, though.

I'll do the easy and hard parts of each trick:

Easy, PDX Blender:
- The set can be in any location as long as it isn't at your chest and it is somewhat straight
- The dex is a natural motion, and if you have a practiced osis (like almost every guiltless player does), then it leads naturally into an osis.
- A lot of time to spot the bag and dex.

Difficult, PDX Blender:
- The muted pivot is a hard thing to get perfect, it requires a very small hop which is not a natural motion.
- The catch is harder than normal because it is blind and after a dex.

Easy, Barrage:
- The dexing motion itself, once you start the first whirly-dex, the second one falls in line fairly easily.
- The catch. Toe stalls are easy.

Difficult, Barrage:
- Correct set height. It has to be basically right at your waist. If it is too high, the bag will fall too fast on the way down, meaning you slap the bag away or it's the. If it's too low, it's the and you're more likely to miss the catch.

Those are the main points I think, and if you just read it I think you would guess that far blender is harder, but not by such a margin that it makes barrage easy in comparison.

[FlexThis]

Barrage is one dex up from mirage and is easy to execute with virtually no hip pivots. It's the rewind of paradon (another no brainer single legged double dex).

Blender alone is a whirling osis, which requires timing, faith (blind faith) and a cross bodied stance throughout the move. It's the rewind of twirl, which also requires the same.

Comparing these 2 alone in my mind yields blender as the more difficult move. Simply due to the shear amount of effort and additional movement required.

Adding PDX just places blender that much farther out than barrage. PDX barrage is not as difficult as PDX blender IMO.

I can see how someone who doesn't do a lot of toe tricks or single legged double dexes might struggle, but honestly I don't think the 2 moves are even close in difficulty.

[mc]

I find pdx blender way harder, and I'm the clipperest clipper player ever (to a fault ). You have to set a good bit higher, dex a lot faster, and get really nice set placement. for barrage, I just do midtime whirl and let the mirage fall over it to toe.

[hacksterbator]

afraid you're wrong mc,

barrage is way harder. pdx blender is easy: twist of the hips, little flick at the knee, and tada, done. Barrage brakes up my game so much, the timing throws me, and half the time it's the (unless up time, but even then it's iffy).

[habitat]

afraid you're wrong mc,

lol subjectivity owned