"You have done so much for footbag!"

[C-Fan]

NOTE: This thread poses an honest question, which I'm hoping people post answers to. This isn't a rhetorical thread by any means; I really am curious to hear people's thoughts.

In the last 2 weeks, I've seen a couple posts where people complimented good shredders with some variation of this thread's title. In both cases, it was in response to some big technical shred achievement.

The first instance, was in the thread for David's autumn shred video:

The sport of footbag and all your fans are eternally grateful for what you've contributed to this difficult quirky sport.

and the next was in Jorden's journal:

Jorden, YOU are the man! You have done so much for footbag, and there are no limits for you.

In both of these instances, do the posters mean "you have pushed the technical level of our sport to a high level"? If so, is that what is understood when somebody says: "you have done so much for footbag"?

What does: "you have done so much for footbag" mean to you?

[Empty]

"you have pushed the technical level of our sport to a high level"?

This is one of numerous things I meant.
Also, Jorden helps beginners, with videos about Common Mistakes, and Best Drills For Proggression. Also he invented a program that should help new people. He invented so many tricks and I think he is an inspiration for a lot of people. That's what I wanted to communicate.

Since I'm not natvie english speaker my question is: did I make a mistake?

[C-Fan]

Since I'm not natvie english speaker my question is: did I make a mistake?

If your comment only referred to "pushing the technical limits of the sport," then I'd say it was a little strange. If however you meant it to refer to:

Jorden helps beginners, with videos about Common Mistakes, and Best Drills For Proggression. Also he invented a program that should help new people.

...and you consider that as doing a lot for the sport, then no, it's not a mistake.

I guess the reason I found the comments I quoted in the first post jarring, is that when I think of somebody "doing so much for footbag," I think of things like starting a club, hosting a tournament, or building a website promoting the sport. Dave and Jorden are undeniably great players, and have indeed pushed the technical limits of the sport. That said, neither has done any of the aforementioned. I think Jorden's videos for beginners and his new program have promise, but I'm not sure how much of an impact they've had on the sport yet.

If somebody asked me: "Ken, name some people you'd say have 'done so much for footbag!'" I'd throw out names like this:

Steve Goldberg: Built footbag.org, active participant in IFPA committees, sponsors players to attend tournaments, hosted numerous tournaments, provides funding for worlds, etc.

Vince Bradley: Single-handedly kept a tournament running for something like 15 years (East Coast Champs)

Eli Piltz: Built flipsider.com, which brought in several new players. Actively marketed footbag videos to markets outside of footbag, which in turn led to more exposure for the sport.

Chris Ott/John Stalberger: Hosted major tournaments, largely sponsored by themselves.

Paul Mestas/Daryl Genz: made cheap, yet quality footbags easily available to the public. Before freedom footbags, you couldn't buy a freestylable bag for under $25. Now you can get them for like $5.

I think it's admirable and amazing when players like Dave, Jorden, Milan, etc. push the technicality to incredible limits. It advances the sport. But when I think of "doing so much for footbag," I think more in terms of promoting the sport, getting people into it, and helping it grow. That's why I find it strange when people make that comment referring to players who are technically amazing, but are not promoters of the sport in other ways.

The reason I started this thread though, was to see what other people think. Do other people interpret that comment the way I do? Or is the comment now a standard compliment for technical shred achievement?

[bridbeun]

My comment was to say that David had contributed to pushing the technical and physical limits of this sport. One, because he's so good and when you're that good, you tend to have a bigger audience. Thus exposing the sport to more people and hopefully more players.

Besides making and giving away footbags. I encourage pretty much anyone who will listen to me to try and play. I am moving to Asheville NC this December and should hopefully find some people to kick with there and start a club.

[Wiktor]

There are some people who did a lot for the sport of footbag.
And i mean to make this sport go forward. Not tricks or combos.
Some of the shredders decided to *work* for the sport and organise it.
By doing so, they had less time to play, improve, win.
Unfortunetly, most regular players are not aware of this.
Without such leaders, footbag could still have this level of tricks,
but the scene would look like unnoficial, funky, hippy hobby.

Now we have NGOs worldwide. IFPA tournament every 2 weeks.
Constant standards of Worlds, judging systems, workshops,
and lots of other projects. We are defenetly a sport.

"You have done so much for footbag!"
- this should refer both for playing itselfs and contribiution.
This all respect for best players, i'd rather say that they push the sport forward, not that they did sooo much.

I hope you get my point.

[fatbagger]

I kind of agree with ken, but on the subject of JM I think you should add him into the group of "done so much for footbag" I think with him it is more than just helping others get better. I see it as him helping the entire community know how to execute tricks without causing harm to their bodies. This is probably one of the best things anyone has done to help secure the future of the sport. Lower level players get injured pretty often imo. And I personally think it is mainly due to them pushing too hard without knowing how to execute the tricks safely. If you can't learn to play and not pay with back, knee and ankle issues the sport will die. Jorden has made it possible for anyone with internet to learn proper form and before he did so that just was not available.(not without piecing it together from multiple sources without demos)
I do think that if you took away the top 5 players at worlds for the past 10 years, the sport would be in the same position it is in today. It would have no affect on the sport as a whole what so ever. People might not be as good as they are now but the general public would view it the same and the players would just see different people as the best. Athletes are just like workers in a company. If they go away someone else will step into there place. I'm the best in the world at my job(no joke) but if I left I would be replaced by someone not as good but the job would still get done. I view great athletes the same way. Lots of people are willing to try to be the best not so many are willing to work that hard at making it possible for others to be the best at something.
EDIT: no disrespect to great athletes. You guys are amazing but I just don't see it as you doing something for the sport. Amazing talent and work ethic but you are not making the sport better just the level of play.

[C-Fan]

Enjoying reading people's thoughts on this question.

...he's so good and when you're that good, you tend to have a bigger audience. Thus exposing the sport to more people and hopefully more players.

In my experience in footbag over the last 14 years, that hasn't been the case. For an audience that doesn't know footbag, what matters is going long and not dropping, along with some easy to understand concepts. I feel like only footbaggers really appreciate the level of players at the top of our sport. I've shown clips of Dave/Vasek/etc. to non-footbaggers where somebody does nemesis x2 to osis, and they'll make comments like: "whoa! They did that last trick behind their back without looking!" I've seen Vasek perform on several TV programs, and what makes him great on those programs is his consistency (i.e., he doesn't drop). Having a great player appear on TV does something for footbag. But that's because he's on TV and not dropping, not because he's a top-tier player.

I do think that if you took away the top 5 players at worlds for the past 10 years, the sport would be in the same position it is in today. It would have no affect on the sport as a whole what so ever.

I agree. Like Wiktor noted, a player setting up a club or an NGO, or hosting a tournament, or creating a local scene isn't going to get as much recognition as somebody hitting 15 unique beastly. That said, I would argue that any of the former "does more for footbag" than the latter. Promoting the sport, and pushing the technical envelope are both noteworthy, and I give props to both. I just think it's odd to confuse or conflate the two.

[Zeke]

What does: "you have done so much for footbag" mean to you?

People that organize, sponsor & promote. I do think that footbag needs both top talent and organizers to grow but organizers tend to be the unsung heroes. I believe that players should take more initiative to make our sport grow as a whole in addition to our own games. I'll even go so far as to say that this is a basic concept that should be taught to new players just like fundamental kicks and stalls. But I also understand that footbag may not be everyone's top priority in life.

I do think that if you took away the top 5 players at worlds for the past 10 years, the sport would be in the same position it is in today.

What do y'all think would happen if the people that Ken mentioned in his second post were taken away, where would the sport be 5-10 years from now? Or, if these people had never contributed at all, where would we be currently?

[Jorden]

What comes first -- the enthusiastic player or the organizer?
Organizers emerge from veteran footbag enthusiasts.
The grassroots element is people playing footbag itself.

It's hard to have a well attended event if people don't care about footbag (or are injured).

Yes, tournaments do bring in new players from the public. But how will they stay motivated if there isn't a constant source of inspiration? Tournaments that are an accessible distance only happen a few times a year. I would argue this isn't frequent enough to keep the average person interested after discovering it.

Organizing events doesn't retain players like the online community does. Forums, facebook and YouTube videos are the main source for expanding our sport. Which logically generates more players/interest: events which are isolated only to a specific region and time, or online videos and forums which can be seen anywhere at anytime?

Steve/Vince/Eli/Chris/John/Paul/Daryl, etc. have done great things for our sport, but they never post on the main forum anymore, and (with the exception of Steve and Daryl) are out of touch with the young generation. Why should people give accolades now for contributions that happened 5, 10 years ago or longer as if it were yesterday? Obviously it's important to pay respect, but that's different.

New players need new and high quality resources (of whatever type) to stay motivated.
Why not give thanks to those who have contributed recently?

[Zeke]

Certainly, thanks and respect should be given to people who go above and beyond to contribute to footbag and the time frame of when it was done isn't so important but I am genuinely curious as to what other players think the difference in the the sport today would be in fatbaggers scenario vs mine.

Based strictly on my experiences, I would say that organizing at a local/club level can provide a constant source of inspiration for players while building and maintaining strong bonds. It takes effort to start a club and maintain it over the years. Obviously, it won't have the wide exposure that the internet can provide.


Net players emerge from veteran footbaggers that can't hang with the younger, enthusiastic shredders

[C-Fan]

Tournaments that are an accessible distance only happen a few times a year.

...for people who don't organize tournaments. Seriously though, while online resources are great and serve a role in promoting the sport, they aren't a substitute for tournaments. Similarly, nobody is claiming that tournaments fill the roles that online resources do either. Tournaments and online resources both play an important role in keeping the sport going; it's not an either/or proposition. I'm not sure why you were portraying it as such in your last post. It's not a zero sum equation.

Why should people give accolades now for contributions that happened 5, 10 years ago or longer as if it were yesterday?

Is that what I was doing in my last post? I thought I was rattling names off the top of my head to use as an example in a post on the modified forums. Had I known I was "giving accolades," I would have tried to be more thorough with my list, more eloquent, and maybe posted it in a more elegant font.

I'd also like to note that while Steve Goldberg made contributions to footbag 10 and 5 years ago, it's not like he's stopped since then either. I went to Green Cup this year where he ran the freestyle tournament. I attended at least 3 tournaments where players attended because he sponsored them, thereby raising the level of competition. And while I didn't go to Worlds this year, I understand that he funded a large chunk of it, and helped with the organizing.

Why not give thanks to those who have contributed recently?

Again, I didn't realize that a list I rattled off the top of my head was going to be seen as comprehensive. Some others off the top of my head:

The Berlin crew for their awesome job at Worlds 09, the best Worlds I've been to. Amazing exposure, and great job with logistics and promotion.
The Japan crew, for running two major tournaments each year for the last 9 years, and still getting media exposure.
CIC, for having a club endure as long as it has with such high numbers of dedicated members. And for hosting NYJ for several years in a row now, and getting good exposure for the sport through that tourney.
Red Husted, for his work building the Portland scene, doing school demos, and hosting USO most years.
The Polish crew, for being one of the most organized in the world, doing promos, hosting multiple tournies, and taking on Worlds next year.

Not a comprehensive list, but some examples of people I think are "doing so much for footbag" right now, in an impactful way.

[FlexThis]

For someone like me, who rarely attends a tournament (due to life), participates in club shred only once per week (thank God for that!), and who is very old to still be participating in a teenager's (early 20s) sport, I'd say that internal WILL to WANT to be better pushes me forward.

I find that WILL and WANT from online videos, forum posts, Facebook, Google +, YouTube, and the rare meeting of a new player. Almost NEVER do I feel inspired by a tournament itself. I simply don't have the time, money and energy to participate. While I appreciate the videos that are spawned out of them, and find tournaments ABSOLUTELY necessary for the future of the sport, they represent a small less than a percent of my overall experience with the sport.

So for me, the "have done so much for the sport" people would be the players themselves along with the 'Marketed' tournament directors and stitchers. These would be (giving accolades) Kenny Shultz, Rick Reese, Peter Irish, Eric Wulff, Carol, Daryl Genz, Abshire, Ryan Mulroney, Vasek, Honza, Jorden, Lonn, Anz, Dave, Evan and !!!Steve Goldberg!!!.

The unsung heroes are not as well known and therefore get overlooked. However, I feel if I attended tournaments more often than not, then my opinion would be different. It's a shame too, because people like Vince Bradley deserve recognition for all the work behind the scenes!

Then there are the players that are unknown that make up the sport itself. If it weren't for them there would be no sport at all.

[CICFreestyler17]

You can basically sum up freestyle footbag with three people: Kenny>Ryan>Vasek

People that do a lot for footbag are basically the ones that stick with it for a long period of time. In some form they are spreading the word. The people on here posting videos, giving advice, discussing topics, searching for improvements in judging/scoring etc mean a lot as well.

People running clubs and hosting tournaments I would say do the most for the sport. Tom and Zeke especially (CIC) have done so much in the last ten years. Just the other month we had a "birthday jam" that seemed to turn into a small tournament. It was cool to see.

And then there is Steve! I can't even imagine all the countless, thankless hours he has dedicated to footbag. I probably should have said you can basically sum up footbag with four people.

[Outsider]

People who have done so much for footbag? I vote for those terrific people who MAKE terrific footbags. Without them we'd all just be bad dancers.

[abstract]

there are so many ways you can "do something" for footbag, that to try to limit that definition would limit our own expectations about how footbag can grow.

great players & teachers strengthen the existing fanbase. great promoters expand that fanbase. great club & event organizers bring both worlds together. great stitchers make it all possible.

which is the most important? all of them, imo.

if a player films some badass shred in their basement & that inspires someone halfway across the planet to get involved in the sport as a promoter, then that player is partially responsible for the growth that comes from that.

[Jazzkid]

There are those that have done so much for footbag and don't even know it....thank you Rod Laver and 50 cent

[fatbagger]

there are so many ways you can "do something" for footbag

Yeah but I think this is about people who have done so much that it seperated them from all the other contributors to the sport. I have done things for footbag(not much) does that mean I can say I have done so much for footbag. I don't think so.
If the top players got that good just to showcase the sport but they don't really enjoy playing I would say they did a ton for footbag. But I just don't see it, they play and get good because they love playing and want to be good(I think) so essentially they are doing so much for themselves. That's why I believe the players shouldn't be in that catagory of contributors just for shred level.

[mc]

I think anyone who, with love and passion in his / her heart, does something public involving footbag, and does it a lot, for a long period of time, benefits the sport, and thereby does "so much for footbag".

For everyone, it's going to be different, and the actual degree to which their influence impacts other players and the public perception of the sport is incalculable.

Where would we be without inspiration? To name one source, Jorden's videos have juiced me up before a session, or inspired me to have a session when I otherwise would not have, many times. I'm sure it's the same for lots of others.

Where would we be without new players? Hacky Sack Jack Lentz goes to every music festival and public event that he can manage with a back pack full of footbags, and teaches players of all ages about quality bags and freestyle moves.

Where would we be without money? Ted Fritsch has given sizable donations to many of the tournaments I've attended.

Where would we be without something good to kick? There's nothing like cracking open an envelope with a brand new bag in it. That alone has been enough to get me to throw my shoes on and boot a bag around. Thanks, stitchers.

There are lots of different ways to do "so much for footbag" that I appreciate personally. Others may not appreciate them in the same way I do, or consider them doing something for footbag, but that's how I see it.