Hamas Fights back

[Guest_1]

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/8-die-in-s ... 3909990001

8 Die in Shooting at Jerusalem Seminary
By ARON HELLER,AP
Posted: 2008-03-06 20:43:51
Filed Under: World News
JERUSALEM (March 6) - A gunman entered the library of a rabbinical seminary and opened fire on a crowded nighttime study session Thursday, killing eight people and wounding nine before he was slain, police and rescue workers said. It was the first major militant attack in Jerusalem in more than four years.


Photo Gallery
Menahem Kahana, AFP / Getty Images Bloodshed in Israeli School6 of 6 Israeli special forces gather at the scene of the attack. The shooting was the first militant attack in Jerusalem in more than four years. Secretary Rice condemned it as an "act of terror and depravity." Source: AP

Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip praised the operation in a statement, and thousands of Palestinians took to the streets of Gaza to celebrate.

The day's violence, which also included a deadly ambush of an army patrol near Israel's border with Gaza, was likely to complicate attempts by Egypt to arrange a truce between Israel and Palestinian militants. The U.S. is backing the Egyptian effort.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev and moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the shooting. But Regev said the Palestinian government must take steps against the extremists -- not just denounce their attacks.

"Tonight's massacre in Jerusalem is a defining moment," he told The Associated Press. "It is clear that those people celebrating this bloodshed have shown themselves to be not only the enemies of Israel but of all of humanity."

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who only on Wednesday persuaded Abbas to return to peace talks with Israel, called the attack an "act of terror and depravity."

Israeli defense officials said the attacker came from east Jerusalem, the predominantly Palestinian section of the city. Jerusalem's Palestinians have Israeli ID cards that give them freedom of movement in Israel, unlike Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the attacker walked through the seminary's main gate and entered the library, where witnesses said some 80 people were gathered. He carried an assault rifle and pistol, and used both weapons in the attack. Rosenfeld said at least six empty bullet clips were found on the floor.

Two hours after the shooting, police found the body of the eighth victim. Rescue workers said nine people were wounded, three seriously.

David Simchon, head of the seminary, said the students had been preparing a celebration for the new month on the Jewish calendar, which includes the holiday of Purim. "We were planning to have a Purim party here tonight and instead we had a massacre," he told Channel 2 TV.

Yehuda Meshi Zahav, head of the Zaka rescue service, entered the library after the attack. "The whole building looked like a slaughterhouse. The floor was covered in blood. The students were in class at the time of the attack," he said. "The floors are littered with holy books covered in blood."

Witnesses described a terrifying scene during the shooting, with students jumping out windows to escape.

One of the students, Yitzhak Dadon, said he shot the attacker twice in the head. "I laid on the roof of the study hall, cocked my gun and waited for him. He came out of the library spraying automatic fire," he said.

Police said an Israeli soldier in the area then shot the man dead. After the shooting, hundreds of seminary students demonstrated outside the building, screaming for revenge and chanting, "Death to Arabs."

The seminary is the Mercaz Harav yeshiva in the Kiryat Moshe quarter at the entrance to Jerusalem, a prestigious center of Jewish studies identified with the leadership of the Jewish settlement movement in the West Bank.

It was founded by the late Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Hacohen Kook, the movement's spiritual founder, and serves some 400 high school students and young Israeli soldiers, and many of them carry arms.

"It's very sad tonight in Jerusalem," Mayor Uri Lupolianski told Channel 2 TV. "Many people were killed in the heart of Jerusalem."

Rabbi Shlomo Amar, one of Israel's two chief rabbis, led a prayer session at the seminary after the shooting. Students huddled together, and many sobbed uncontrollably.

In Lebanon, Hezbollah's Al-Manar satellite TV station said a previously unknown group called the Martyrs of Imad Mughniyeh and Gaza was responsible for the attack. The claim could not immediately be verified. Mughniyeh, a Hezbollah commander, was killed in a car bomb in Syria last month. Hezbollah has blamed Israel for the assassination.

Hamas stopped just short of claiming responsibility for the Jerusalem shootings. "We bless the operation. It will not be the last," Hamas said in a statement sent to reporters by text message.

At mosques in Gaza City and the northern Gaza Strip, many residents performed prayers of thanksgiving -- only performed in cases of great victory to thank God.

About 7,000 Gazans marched in the streets of Jebaliya, firing in the air in celebration, and visited homes of those killed and wounded in the last Israeli incursion. In the southern town of Rafah, residents distributed sweets to motorists, and militants fired mortars in celebration.

Rice said she spoke with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni to express U.S. condolences to the people of Israel and the families of the victims.

"This barbarous act has no place among civilized peoples and shocks the conscience of all peace loving nations. There is no cause that could ever justify this action," she said.

Israel's Foreign Ministry condemned the "abominable" attack and urged the world to rally with it against terrorism. "Israel expects the nations of the world to support it in its war against those who murder students, women and children, by any means and with respect for neither place nor target," it said.

At his West Bank headquarters, Abbas condemned the attack. "The president condemned all attacks that target civilians, whether they are Palestinian or Israeli," a statement said.

Abbas had briefly suspended talks to protest an Israeli offensive in Gaza that killed more than 120 Palestinians.

The attack came on the same day Egyptian officials were trying to mediate a truce between Palestinian militants and Israel. The proposal, backed by the U.S., would stop rocket fire on Israel in exchange for an end to Israeli attacks on militants and the resumption of trade and travel from Gaza.

An Israeli official confirmed that Israel is open to the idea of letting guards from Abbas' moderate Fatah movement oversee Gaza's borders -- one of the main tenets of the truce idea. But the Israeli spoke before the shooting, and it was not immediately known whether his country's position would change.

The Egyptian proposal reflected a growing realization that Israel's current policy of blockade and military action has failed to weaken Hamas, which has proven its ability to disrupt a U.S.-sponsored drive to forge an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal by the end of the year.

Still, a deal between Hamas and Israel was far from certain, with Israel fearing the militants will use any lull to rearm and Hamas raising tough conditions, such as a demand for Israel to stop targeting militants in the West Bank as well as Gaza.

Other militant groups are also likely to disrupt any attempts to restore calm. Early Thursday, Palestinian militants set off a bomb on the Gaza border, blowing up an Israeli army jeep and killing a soldier. Late Thursday, Israel said it shot a group of militants trying to plant a bomb in the same area. Palestinian officials said three militants were killed.

The seminary shooting was the first major attack by Palestinian militants in Jerusalem since a suicide bomber killed eight people on Feb. 22, 2004. There have been several attacks since then, and police and the military say they have foiled many other attempts. Militants have also hit other targets in Israel. Thursday's shooting was the deadliest incident in Israel since a suicide bomber killed 11 people in Tel Aviv on April 17, 2006.

Between 2001 and 2004, at the height of Palestinian-Israeli fighting, Jerusalem was a frequent target of Palestinian attacks, including suicide bombings on buses.

[Jeremy]

Yeah it's pretty disgusting. There are people with horrible views of right and wrong on both sides of the Israel/Palestine conflict and until both sides get rid of those people we're going to continue to see such abhorrent actions, such as this, and the attacks on Gaza by the Israeli military last week that also killed a lot of children (I can't find a figure, but 4 in one attack, that represented about 1 third of the deaths).


It's incredible to hear Israel claim that such actions is "helping the peace process" when clearly the reality is that such attacks by Israel inspire people like the gunmen in this massacre to carry out such actions, which will no doubt harden the resolve of Israel to kill more militants, which will inevitably (because of the approach Israel takes) lead to more civilian causalities etc.

Both sides are equally to blame for every attack carried out by either side, and until the people of those countries turn around and start condemning the violence their side is perpetrating, we'll never see peace in Israel or Palestine.

[Guest_1]

It's incredible to hear Israel claim that such actions is "helping the peace process" when clearly the reality is that such attacks by Israel inspire people like the gunmen in this massacre to carry out such actions, which will no doubt harden the resolve of Israel to kill more militants, which will inevitably (because of the approach Israel takes) lead to more civilian causalities etc.

Actually, Palestinians were killing Jews long before Israel even became a state in acts of terrorism.
http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

Both sides are equally to blame for every attack carried out by either side, and until the people of those countries turn around and start condemning the violence their side is perpetrating, we'll never see peace in Israel or Palestine.

That also is untrue. There are clearly different methods of operation. Israel targets known militants (and Hamas is clearly a terrorist organization, hiding in civilians homes endangering them) whereas Hamas clearly targets civilians.

[Guest_1]

It's incredible to hear Israel claim that such actions is "helping the peace process" when clearly the reality is that such attacks by Israel inspire people like the gunmen in this massacre to carry out such actions, which will no doubt harden the resolve of Israel to kill more militants, which will inevitably (because of the approach Israel takes) lead to more civilian causalities etc.

Actually, Palestinians were killing Jews long before Israel even became a state in acts of terrorism.
http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

Both sides are equally to blame for every attack carried out by either side, and until the people of those countries turn around and start condemning the violence their side is perpetrating, we'll never see peace in Israel or Palestine.

That also is untrue. There are clearly different methods of operation. Israel targets known militants (and Hamas is clearly a terrorist organization, hiding in civilians homes endangering them) whereas Hamas clearly targets civilians.

[Bringerofpie]

Fuck. As a Jew (sort of), I say we use our money and influence with the Bacardi family (notable Jews) to buy Jamaica. The rastafarians are right, that is the promised land.

[Frank_Sinatra]

I find it sad that a topic about an act that is being universally condemned by reasonable people could head into this territory, but...

Israel does engage in tactics that harm civilians. Recently a power station in gaza was disabled by military actions, and it served a civilian population, for instance.

I'm not trying to start this old argument about one side being more to blame than another side. I think its unfortunate - bordering on exploitative - that the conversation is being lead in that direction in the first place.

[Jeremy]

It's incredible to hear Israel claim that such actions is "helping the peace process" when clearly the reality is that such attacks by Israel inspire people like the gunmen in this massacre to carry out such actions, which will no doubt harden the resolve of Israel to kill more militants, which will inevitably (because of the approach Israel takes) lead to more civilian causalities etc.

Actually, Palestinians were killing Jews long before Israel even became a state in acts of terrorism.
http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

Both sides are equally to blame for every attack carried out by either side, and until the people of those countries turn around and start condemning the violence their side is perpetrating, we'll never see peace in Israel or Palestine.

That also is untrue. There are clearly different methods of operation. Israel targets known militants (and Hamas is clearly a terrorist organization, hiding in civilians homes endangering them) whereas Hamas clearly targets civilians.

Israel cannot control the actions of Hamas, but it can control its own actions. If Israel knows that Hamas is hiding in civilian homes, it is still the decision of Israel that those lives are expendable. Somebody in the Israeli government or military says; "we're going to kill children in this attack, but the benefit of killing the militants is greater than the loss of killing those children."

However this doesn't take into account the feeling amongst the Palestinian people - who do not all support Hamas - who are bound to get very angry whenever they see that decision made; killing militants is more important than the lives of children. Whenever that happens, we are bound to see retaliatory attacks. Israel must know that one of the consequences of their actions is that some Palestinians will respond with violence. If you know people are going to respond with violence to your actions, and you carry out those actions anyway, you have to take responsibility for those actions.

Of course as I've said, the exact same logic applies to the Palestinian militants. If they know Israel will respond with violence to their actions, and they carry them out anyway, they have to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Both sides are to blame, and both sides will continue to see their people brutally and needlessly murdered until they break away from the cycle of violence.

There is no moral high ground, there are just actions that perpetuate the deaths of the citizens of the people carrying out those actions. Both sides are deeply in the wrong, and I'd go as far as to say unfit to govern.

Were I the global dictator, I'd send in my massive global army. Disarm everybody. Force everybody to attend schools together, and keep the countries in a complete authoritarian dictatorship for a few generations. People who fought against the dictatorship would be lightly punished. People who fought against the opposing religious ideology would be exiled.

Of course given that we don't have that option, the only way Israelis will stop being killed, and the only way Palestinians will stop being killed is if both sides stop killing the other side. Probably one side will need to agree before the other, and then will have to put up with their citizens being killed without retaliation. That would be a true demonstration of leadership and moral high ground. With the current leaders, we're definitely not going to see peace; just more innocent deaths.

[Guest_1]

Jeremy, don't be silly.

How do you use logic, reason, and diplomacy with a terrorist organization?

[Guest_1]

Israel does engage in tactics that harm civilians. Recently a power station in gaza was disabled by military actions, and it served a civilian population, for instance.

The government is supplying terrorists with funding to commit acts of violence. So to defend itself, the country being attacked cut off the power supply to the government. Now instead of using money on guns, it can use money to take care of its citizens. Pretty good idea in my humble opinion

[Guest_1]

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[Guest_1]

Commemoration Hazak Hazak V’Nithazek!

[Jeremy]

Jeremy, don't be silly.

How do you use logic, reason, and diplomacy with a terrorist organization?

You don't need to use logic, reason or diplomacy to directly convince the terrorists to stop their actions.

Let's imagine that tomorrow Israel tells Palestine that they're going to stop all military aggression. They'll defend themselves, but if a suicide bomber blows themselves up, they won't retaliate with violence; they'll just take the hits, and instead they're going to pay for food, schools, houses and hospitals in the Palestine territories - with no strings attached. The Palestinian Government can take the food, schools, houses and hospitals and keep funding terrorism if it wants to, but Israel wants peace, and it's going to choose peace, even if Palestine does not. Now given this very hypothetical situation, what do you think would happen? What would the West say when there were attacks against Israel - any kind of attack, terrorist or just shooting at soldiers? After 6 months, or a year, of this policy, once the houses and schools and hospital were built, what do you think the Palestinian people would say if there were terrorist attacks against Israel? Would people still be happy to die killing Israelis? Would they still be revered for sacrificing their lives?

The Palestinian people feel strongly oppressed. Whether you agree that this is justifiable or not is beside the point; how you feel won't change how they feel. From their perspective, it's easy to see why they would show such respect for people who are "fighting the oppressors" even if we can see how morally reprehensible that fighting is. If you took away the oppression, if you showed them only kindness, would they keep fighting against you forever? Would the violence end and people would at least be able to talk, and debate and yell about their differences, but not kill because of them?


Let me ask another question. Given Israel's current approach to the problem, when do you think there will be peace in the Middle East. If Israel continue to respond to violence with violence, how long do you predict that it will take before there's no more violence in Israel. Here is my prediction, and we can check back every year to see who is most likely to be correct. There will never be peace in the Israel so long as they use violence against Palestinians. I could add that there will never be peace in Palestine so long as they keep using violence against the Israelis. Peace will only be achieved when one side stops using violence against the other. So long as they both keep retaliating, there will always be war.

If you think Israelis actions are right, then do you think they're bringing about peace, or do you think we're going to see this conflict never end?

[PoisonTaffy]

In Israel, a government that would try that would be usurped in a month. Democracy favors governments that are efficient in reaching short term goals but gives little credit to governments who aim towards long term goals.
Israel has a dynamic democracy and a very powerful media, and often this combination limits the government's range of responses to such actions.

[Guest_1]

Let's imagine that tomorrow Israel tells Palestine that they're going to stop all military aggression. They'll defend themselves, but if a suicide bomber blows themselves up, they won't retaliate with violence; they'll just take the hits, and instead they're going to pay for food, schools, houses and hospitals in the Palestine territories - with no strings attached. The Palestinian Government can take the food, schools, houses and hospitals and keep funding terrorism if it wants to, but Israel wants peace, and it's going to choose peace, even if Palestine does not. Now given this very hypothetical situation, what do you think would happen? What would the West say when there were attacks against Israel - any kind of attack, terrorist or just shooting at soldiers? After 6 months, or a year, of this policy, once the houses and schools and hospital were built, what do you think the Palestinian people would say if there were terrorist attacks against Israel? Would people still be happy to die killing Israelis? Would they still be revered for sacrificing their lives?

The Palestinian people feel strongly oppressed. Whether you agree that this is justifiable or not is beside the point; how you feel won't change how they feel. From their perspective, it's easy to see why they would show such respect for people who are "fighting the oppressors" even if we can see how morally reprehensible that fighting is. If you took away the oppression, if you showed them only kindness, would they keep fighting against you forever? Would the violence end and people would at least be able to talk, and debate and yell about their differences, but not kill because of them?

Israel did in fact completely disengage from the gaza strip and terrorist attacks increased 500 percent. Just as Israel doesn't want Arab casualties, it doesn't want Israeli casualties either. By not responding and decreasing the amount of terrorism and attacks on Israel, Israel would be allowing its citizens to perish. Israel has a responsibility to protect its citizens. If human life is important, Israel can then not let its citizens be attacked.
Israel's war to halt rocket attacks

Let me ask another question. Given Israel's current approach to the problem, when do you think there will be peace in the Middle East. If Israel continue to respond to violence with violence, how long do you predict that it will take before there's no more violence in Israel. Here is my prediction, and we can check back every year to see who is most likely to be correct. There will never be peace in the Israel so long as they use violence against Palestinians. I could add that there will never be peace in Palestine so long as they keep using violence against the Israelis. Peace will only be achieved when one side stops using violence against the other. So long as they both keep retaliating, there will always be war.

If you think Israelis actions are right, then do you think they're bringing about peace, or do you think we're going to see this conflict never end?

Israel has been the only country actually making sacrifices and pursuing peace. Given its current practices of supplying the arabs with financial support, weaponry, food, education, etc. NO! Not until the arabs need to focus on building a civilization and infrastructure and quit focusing on attacking Jews will the situation be solved. Each side needs to make sacrifices and so far only Israel has. The Arabs need to start acting seriously to pursue peace instead of terror. In a relationship, both parties need to make effort and sacrifices. As shown by Oslo, arabs don't have any interest in it.

[Jeremy]

So Israel are making the right decisions, and the outcome of their decisions is that they're going to be at war forever.


If re changed the context of that claim and said something like this;


The policies of the Democratic Republic of Congo ensures that the nation will always be at war, in what is now the bloodiest war the world has seen since World War 2. Their policies are also the excellent, and the best approach they can take to the situation.


How would you view that statement? Do you think the person making it is putting forward an objective and rational position, or a dogmatic rhetorical position?


If you concede that Israel are going to be at war forever, or under the reliance of the people they are killing deciding to be peaceful to achieve peace, wouldn't changing their policies be a really good idea?

[Jeremy]

For some reason I wrote "re" instead of "we."

[Guest_1]

If you concede that Israel are going to be at war forever, or under the reliance of the people they are killing deciding to be peaceful to achieve peace, wouldn't changing their policies be a really good idea?

I concede that people will always be trying to kill Jews. Laying down and letting it happen would only let them kill more Jews, quicker and easier.

Israel completely disengaged from the Gaza Strip and the only result was more murdered Jews and no end in sight.

[Senor Grommet]

Jeremy,

I hope you can remove your head from your ass to see that no matter what Israel does, Palesatinians will always perform hateful actions upon Jewish people. Even if YEARS of only peaceful actions were performed by Israel, those years would not be enough to destroy the societal foundation of hatred on which current Palestinian philosophies reside.

I mean, c'mon, in schools they teach the kids to want to kill Jewish people, that Jews are inherently evil, and that the only Jew is a dead Jew. You gain favor by destroying Jewish people. What is giving a bit of money and rebuilding doing to do to change that?

Here's the other thing I'm pissed about:

When fucking WAR happens, the winner take some shit, be it land, people, riches, whatever. Thats the way it has always been throughout history. Either that or the winner makes you change your policies and practices, maybe even a combination of both. Now, as far as I know Israel has not "lost" in a war that it has had against its "enemies" since the creation of the Israeli state. So why the fuck is Israel the one to always make the sacrifices? Why is Israel expected to give anything back? Israel fucking earned that shit. Of course, that is not very diplomatic of me.

[Jeremy]

I concede that people will always be trying to kill Jews. Laying down and letting it happen would only let them kill more Jews, quicker and easier.

Israel completely disengaged from the Gaza Strip and the only result was more murdered Jews and no end in sight.

The way Israel disengaged, and their policies during that time relating to Palestine can hardly be seen as inclusive or reaching out to Palestinians. Rather it was an isolationist policy attempting to create a separation between the two states. That's not going to work, and it's not what I'm advocating.

This view that people will always be trying to kill Jews is absolute rubbish. I'm also not advising that Israel lays down and lets it happen. I'm saying they need to stop these 'eye for an eye' retaliations where a suicide bomber kills people in Israel, and then Israel goes and kills a bunch of people, some are related and some are not, to the person who perpetrated this event, who is already dead.

Attacking people will never make them stop hating you. Never. Israeli children are always going to be dying while Israel keeps attacking people. Always.

Of course the same applies to Palestine. Both sides are equally at fault. They both have these ridiculous dogmatic views about the conflict that mean they're going to keep killing people on the other side, and the other side is going to keep killing them. I've been having a debate recently with a person supporting the Palestinian movement and he puts forward almost the exact same arguments as you do. Israel is always going to oppress Palestinians. Israel wants to kill all Muslims. If we stop fighting against them, they'll just wipe us all out etc. Israeli and Palestinian supporters have almost the exact same opinions on the conflict. "Israel" and "Palestine" are basically interchangeable in their arguments.

I hope you can remove your head from your ass to see that no matter what Israel does, Palesatinians will always perform hateful actions upon Jewish people. Even if YEARS of only peaceful actions were performed by Israel, those years would not be enough to destroy the societal foundation of hatred on which current Palestinian philosophies reside.

How do you know this? Have you seen what's happened in Turkey. They're a completely Muslim society. They had a terrorist attack in 2002 and they changed their policy to attempting to integrate potential terrorists into the community as much as possible, and they've never had a terrorist attack since. You should go through this by Scott Atran (an anthropologist studying extremist religious groups for 30 years or so);

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/Atran07/index.html

We only need to look at the approaches around the world, and the views of all the experts on terrorism, that heavy handed aggression creates terrorism, and socially inclusive policy and community development stops terrorism. So yeah, there's books of evidence about the best approach that has worked around the world - from Turkey to Indonesia to the Philippines, and you're claiming that all that evidence is wrong. Based on what? Anecdotal evidence? Your opinion? No offence intended, but I don't really care what your opinion is if you can't back it up with evidence to support it. The evidence all points in one direction, and Israelis and Palestinians do the exact opposite to what the evidence says works.

I mean, c'mon, in schools they teach the kids to want to kill Jewish people, that Jews are inherently evil, and that the only Jew is a dead Jew. You gain favor by destroying Jewish people. What is giving a bit of money and rebuilding doing to do to change that?

Palestinans say the exact some thing about Jews. They say that if they were to stop fighting then the Jews would just destroy them completely because they the Jews just want to kill all Muslims and that they believe Muslims are inherently evil. They claim that in schools they teach kids to want to kill Israeli people. Both sides are just as bad as each other. Both sides are responsible for the deaths of their own citizens and both sides are going to keep seeing the death and suffering of their own citizens until they they decide that they're going to stop killing the other side no matter what. Until then they're going to keep dying. That's my prediction for the region; both sides are going to keep killing each other until one side stops and tries to peacefully engage with the other side. The other side might not accept this to begin with, but they'll have to, and if that doesn't happen they're just going to keep on dying.

[BainbridgeShred]

red on which current Palestinian philosophies reside.

How do you know this? Have you seen what's happened in Turkey. They're a completely Muslim society. They had a terrorist attack in 2002 and they changed their policy to attempting to integrate potential terrorists into the community as much as possible, and they've never had a terrorist attack since. You should go through this by Scott Atran (an anthropologist studying extremist religious groups for 30 years or so)[/quote]

This is kind of like when George Bush comes out and says "We haven't been attacked since 9/11, what a wonderful job we've been doing protecting the Homeland! Vote Republican."

So Turkey hasn't been attacked since 2002? Neither has America. Neither has Spain. Neither has London. Does that mean that these countries attacking Iraq actually did draw every single terrorist to Iraq and that the attacks were just random? Of course the fuck not. Does Turkey enacting this one small policy have anything to do with them not being attacked in 6 years? I dunno, it might-atleast it's more likely to me that it helped more than the 3 aformentioned countries attacking Iraq only suffering at most an attack or two... But your whole reasoning is all kinds of faulty anyways, and I'm sure there are plenty of Muslim's who wouldn't hold back from launching another attack in Turkey if they were ordered to do so.