Clarification of Sonic vs. Double Spinning vs. Peeking
Clarification of Sonic vs. Double Spinning vs. Peeking
The purpose of this thread is to clarify the definition of the "sonic" spinning concept. I will explain the concept several different ways, and finish with some historical footnotes which may help explain where the confusion about this term comes from. Ideally I'd make a video explaining this concept, but that may be hard for me to do at this time. Tonight I'll add a couple video links with examples of sonic tricks.
What is Sonic? Perhaps the easiest way to think of sonic, is as a double spin, but where the second spin goes the opposite direction.
Sonic has 2 actual spins. What do I mean by actual spin? Well, gyro clipper and osis have the same job's notation, and both get a body add for a "spin," but the "spin" in osis occurs during the stall. Every sane footbagger would call gyro clipper a spinning trick, while most would not consider osis a spinning trick. So by this definition, a peeking osis (or gyro osis) would not be considered a sonic trick. There IS a sonic trick which shares the same Jobs notation as gyro osis: sonic near clipper.
This brings me to my next point. Due to the way footbag developed historically, there are several concepts which are either misnamed, or have a name but don't need one. Bear with me here. After any set, you can do a downtime component. The downtime component can be described as "near" or "far" (sameside and opp are often used in the same context).
For example: After you do a stepping set, there are 2 butterflies you can do. Stepping far (or opp if you prefer) butterfly is a ripwalk, and stepping near (sameside) butterfly is a sidewalk. Similarly, after you do a spin there are 2 clippers you can do. Spinning far clipper is a spinning clipper, while spinning near clipper is a gyro clipper. With me so far?
Due to historical quirks, we sometimes developed a convoluted naming system to describe whether the component following a set was near or far. So stepping far component was named "blurry," while stepping near component was "stepping." Spinning far component was "spinning," while spinning near component was "gyro." For the moment lets ignore the whole pdx requirement for blurry, and the no-plant requirement for gyro, as that needlessly complicates things and takes our eye off the ball.
The point I'm getting at, is that a single set does not need 2 different names based on whether the ensuing component is near or far. It is needlessly complicated and confusing. Am I proposing we abandon the terms gyro and blurry? No. I'm just setting the stage to explain the sonic concept. God bless you if you are still reading, and are still with me.
OK. Now onto Peeking. In order for the footbag world to understand sonic, we must acknowledge and understand that the term "peeking" is an anachronism which was developed for a single trick, and is a term that only confuses the conversation. "Peeking osis" is really just spinning near osis, or gyro osis if you will. Why isn't gyro clipper called "peeking clipper?" For the simple fact that gyro osis was more uncommon, and also because for a long time people were militant that "gyro" only refer to tricks with a dex. That said, "peeking" only referred to a single trick, and this historical aberration has led to much confusion. So from this point onwards in the conversation, let's abandon the term peeking. What was referred to as peeking osis we will now call gyro osis, for the purpose of clarity and consistency.
Now that peeking has been eliminated, we can discuss sonic. Sonic is in essence a double spin, but where the second spin is the opposite direction of the first. Got it? So with sonic clipper, you would start on a left foot clipper, spin to your left, spot the bag, spin to your right, and catch the bag with your right foot clipper. For sonic near clipper, you'd do the exact same thing but catch the bag with your left foot clipper.
Does this clarify the concept at all? I'll post some videos tonight, and maybe try and film one this weekend to explain the thinking better. The two takeaways from this post are:
1. Forget the term "peeking." It historically only applied to one trick which could have been better described as gyro or spinning-near. So throw that term out.
2. Sonic=double spinning where the second spin is the opposite direction.
What is Sonic? Perhaps the easiest way to think of sonic, is as a double spin, but where the second spin goes the opposite direction.
Sonic has 2 actual spins. What do I mean by actual spin? Well, gyro clipper and osis have the same job's notation, and both get a body add for a "spin," but the "spin" in osis occurs during the stall. Every sane footbagger would call gyro clipper a spinning trick, while most would not consider osis a spinning trick. So by this definition, a peeking osis (or gyro osis) would not be considered a sonic trick. There IS a sonic trick which shares the same Jobs notation as gyro osis: sonic near clipper.
This brings me to my next point. Due to the way footbag developed historically, there are several concepts which are either misnamed, or have a name but don't need one. Bear with me here. After any set, you can do a downtime component. The downtime component can be described as "near" or "far" (sameside and opp are often used in the same context).
For example: After you do a stepping set, there are 2 butterflies you can do. Stepping far (or opp if you prefer) butterfly is a ripwalk, and stepping near (sameside) butterfly is a sidewalk. Similarly, after you do a spin there are 2 clippers you can do. Spinning far clipper is a spinning clipper, while spinning near clipper is a gyro clipper. With me so far?
Due to historical quirks, we sometimes developed a convoluted naming system to describe whether the component following a set was near or far. So stepping far component was named "blurry," while stepping near component was "stepping." Spinning far component was "spinning," while spinning near component was "gyro." For the moment lets ignore the whole pdx requirement for blurry, and the no-plant requirement for gyro, as that needlessly complicates things and takes our eye off the ball.
The point I'm getting at, is that a single set does not need 2 different names based on whether the ensuing component is near or far. It is needlessly complicated and confusing. Am I proposing we abandon the terms gyro and blurry? No. I'm just setting the stage to explain the sonic concept. God bless you if you are still reading, and are still with me.
OK. Now onto Peeking. In order for the footbag world to understand sonic, we must acknowledge and understand that the term "peeking" is an anachronism which was developed for a single trick, and is a term that only confuses the conversation. "Peeking osis" is really just spinning near osis, or gyro osis if you will. Why isn't gyro clipper called "peeking clipper?" For the simple fact that gyro osis was more uncommon, and also because for a long time people were militant that "gyro" only refer to tricks with a dex. That said, "peeking" only referred to a single trick, and this historical aberration has led to much confusion. So from this point onwards in the conversation, let's abandon the term peeking. What was referred to as peeking osis we will now call gyro osis, for the purpose of clarity and consistency.
Now that peeking has been eliminated, we can discuss sonic. Sonic is in essence a double spin, but where the second spin is the opposite direction of the first. Got it? So with sonic clipper, you would start on a left foot clipper, spin to your left, spot the bag, spin to your right, and catch the bag with your right foot clipper. For sonic near clipper, you'd do the exact same thing but catch the bag with your left foot clipper.
Does this clarify the concept at all? I'll post some videos tonight, and maybe try and film one this weekend to explain the thinking better. The two takeaways from this post are:
1. Forget the term "peeking." It historically only applied to one trick which could have been better described as gyro or spinning-near. So throw that term out.
2. Sonic=double spinning where the second spin is the opposite direction.
- Iron Clad Ben
- Superior Precision Bionics
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- Contact:
Can you clarify some more on the exact nature of the spins that comprise sonic set? Could you say that sonic is spinning-inspinning set? I always thought it was gyro-ingyro (see: http://www.footbag.org/gallery/show/-5892 )
Sonic clipper is a full backspin, followed by a full in-spin to clipper?
Sonic near clipper is a full backspin, followed by a half in-spin to clipper?
Sonic clipper is a full backspin, followed by a full in-spin to clipper?
Sonic near clipper is a full backspin, followed by a half in-spin to clipper?
At the 15 second mark of this clip Lon hits sonic (far) osis:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzDt4Zw8TPo[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzDt4Zw8TPo[/youtube]
Eric Windsor once described sonic as "peaking spinning" - I think that's a good description.Iron Clad Ben wrote: Sonic clipper is a full backspin, followed by a full in-spin to clipper?
Sonic near clipper is a full backspin, followed by a half in-spin to clipper?
There is no inspin in sonic clipper. I'm unsure what you mean by "full" - sonic clipper would be a normal spin, followed by a spin in the other direction (after seeing the bag) and then a clipper stall on the far side to the setting side.
Sonic near clipper would be a normal back spin, followed by a spin in the opposite direction and then a clipper stall on the near (same) side as the initial set.
You could rename both these tricks as peaking spinning clipper and peaking gyro clipper.
edit; using "peaking" as a set to define essentially a non dex gyro move - ie. spinning near side (which is the opposite side as the setting foot) - gyro is supposedly spinning no plant near side dex. As Ken has pointed out, this definition is not the same as the historical definition, but it's used in this manner by a number of people these days.
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- Atomsmashasaurus Dex
- Posts: 977
- Joined: 09 Jul 2006 13:58
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Hey thanx for taking the time to post all that Ken.
I kinda agree that peeking should just be totally abandoned but at the same time I feel that peeking would be a good term to apply to any move that ends with a "near" trick and sonic would apply to any move ending with a "far/paradox" trick. So a peeking osis would be spin clockwise>spin counterclockwise>near osis. So it would basically be a normal osis set from clipper but with a spin and reverse spin in between. As for sonic osis, it would be spin clockwise>spin counterclockwise>far osis. So basically just a far osis, but again, with a spin and reverse spin in between. However, this would completely destroy the original meaning of "peeking" osis, and will probably never catch on.
I guess it doesn't really matter, since the tricks can be described as sonic near/far, but I just thought peeking had potential. Also, I can't hit any sonic tricks (yet) so my word doesn't really mean much. But when I do, oh ho ho, you better watch out footbag vernacular!
I kinda agree that peeking should just be totally abandoned but at the same time I feel that peeking would be a good term to apply to any move that ends with a "near" trick and sonic would apply to any move ending with a "far/paradox" trick. So a peeking osis would be spin clockwise>spin counterclockwise>near osis. So it would basically be a normal osis set from clipper but with a spin and reverse spin in between. As for sonic osis, it would be spin clockwise>spin counterclockwise>far osis. So basically just a far osis, but again, with a spin and reverse spin in between. However, this would completely destroy the original meaning of "peeking" osis, and will probably never catch on.
I guess it doesn't really matter, since the tricks can be described as sonic near/far, but I just thought peeking had potential. Also, I can't hit any sonic tricks (yet) so my word doesn't really mean much. But when I do, oh ho ho, you better watch out footbag vernacular!
Doug Tank
Here are some sonic tricks, now that I have a camera again:
Sonic clipper
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2MHx2I0g8g&fmt=18[/youtube]
Sonic osis:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DdaYvEx--w&fmt=18[/youtube]
Sonic legover:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb_JmWUs9dg&fmt=18[/youtube]
Sonic clipper
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2MHx2I0g8g&fmt=18[/youtube]
Sonic osis:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DdaYvEx--w&fmt=18[/youtube]
Sonic legover:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb_JmWUs9dg&fmt=18[/youtube]
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- Egyptian Footgod
- Posts: 1341
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I would say that if on the first spin you don't make clear eye contact with the bag (which is tricky, cause bags don't have eyes), then the trick is "the." I also think that the first spin in sonic is smaller than a normal spin, but deserves a body since it has at least as much rotation as an osis.Kimbe. wrote:About the concept: what's your opinion on how big the first spin has to be (in degrees) so that the trick can be called "sonic something"?
I revisited this thread on a whim, and after rereading it, some posts make more sense to me. Specifically Doug's and Ianek's:
1. spinning spinning. Aka double spinning.
2. spinning gyro. You could think of it like double spinning near.
3. gyro spinning. aka sonic.
4. gyro gyro.
I'll try and make a video this weekend to clarify this. But I thought it was interesting.
For those who want to visualize what I'm talking about, imagine you start on a left foot clipper. There are four tricks you can do where you have two spins and finish on clipper.
1. Double spinning clipper: Left clipper set, spin counter clockwise twice, left clipper delay.
2. Spinning gyro clipper (aka double spinning near clipper): Left clipper set, spin counter clockwise twice, right clipper delay.
3. Gyro spinning, aka sonic: Left clipper set, spin counter clockwise, spot bag, spin clockwise, right clipper delay.
4. Gyro gyro: Left clipper set, spin counter clockwise, spot bag, spin clockwise, left clipper delay.
Yeah, this could use a video.
After thinking it over some more, there are four types of "double spins" that I have seen.ianek wrote:we don't even need Sonic.
sonic near clipper is : dbl gyro clipper
sonic far clipper is : gyro spinning clipper
1. spinning spinning. Aka double spinning.
2. spinning gyro. You could think of it like double spinning near.
3. gyro spinning. aka sonic.
4. gyro gyro.
I'll try and make a video this weekend to clarify this. But I thought it was interesting.
For those who want to visualize what I'm talking about, imagine you start on a left foot clipper. There are four tricks you can do where you have two spins and finish on clipper.
1. Double spinning clipper: Left clipper set, spin counter clockwise twice, left clipper delay.
2. Spinning gyro clipper (aka double spinning near clipper): Left clipper set, spin counter clockwise twice, right clipper delay.
3. Gyro spinning, aka sonic: Left clipper set, spin counter clockwise, spot bag, spin clockwise, right clipper delay.
4. Gyro gyro: Left clipper set, spin counter clockwise, spot bag, spin clockwise, left clipper delay.
Yeah, this could use a video.
I know that when Chad was hitting spinning gyro mirage in the late 90s, he was calling it "wrecking ball." That said, I never heard the term wrecking expanded to "spinning gyro" from that.
I think it's kind of cool though, that footbag has come to the point where tricks using these concepts are getting more common. I remember thinking about this in the late 90s, but nobody was doing sonic back then, and double spinning was rare. It's cool to see the sport catch up to the hypotheticals.
I think it's kind of cool though, that footbag has come to the point where tricks using these concepts are getting more common. I remember thinking about this in the late 90s, but nobody was doing sonic back then, and double spinning was rare. It's cool to see the sport catch up to the hypotheticals.
I guess the next thing we'll start seeing is the inspinning versions of the peaking/sonic tricks. I remember going through a phase where I hit a few inspin peaking stuff, but not with anything exciting at the end.
Edit; Edited multiple times because I accidentally edited this post when trying to edit my post below this one
Edit; Edited multiple times because I accidentally edited this post when trying to edit my post below this one
Last edited by Jeremy on 03 Oct 2011 13:39, edited 4 times in total.
Wow, my physical memory is a lot better than my mental memory. I hit inspinning gyro osis first try, and right when I did, I realized I hit this years ago in Japan. But flipside is new:C-Fan wrote:That's a great idea.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ1nPIVw_bo[/youtube]
Good job. The phase I went through was more trying stuff where you inspin, spot the bag, (back)spin back and then do something. I think inspinning sonic clipper was the hardest trick I hit like that, which has a nice symmetry to it on paper, but with my spins ended up looking and feeling ugly and out of control.
Edit; And with these kinds of tricks I was always concerned that I wasn't spinning enough on the first spin. In my mind, for it to be clean the bag has to come round to your shoulder - ie. a 180, or in the case of inspinning 360 degree spin, before you spin back, and I always feel like I'm just looking over my shoulder and spinning far less than the right amount.
Edit; And with these kinds of tricks I was always concerned that I wasn't spinning enough on the first spin. In my mind, for it to be clean the bag has to come round to your shoulder - ie. a 180, or in the case of inspinning 360 degree spin, before you spin back, and I always feel like I'm just looking over my shoulder and spinning far less than the right amount.