modified.in

[ianek]

Hi footbag freestyle community,

I've been working on a new competition format and we will be trying it at this year's IFPA World Footbag Championships in Prague. After trying it at a big tournament (Worlds), STP will be adjusted as much as it needs to, just like we did with Circle.

I want to thanks a few people for their big help with this project : Jorden Moir, Honza Weber, Tina Aeberli and Wiktor Debski.


Here is the version we will be trying at Worlds:

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Short Technical Program (STP)


(removed) no artistic criteria

-No music, no background music, silence.


Time :

-Time limit:

a-Qualification: 30 seconds, +/- 5 seconds.

b-Semi-final and Final: 45 seconds, +/- 5 seconds.


-Moves hit after maximum time do not count.

-Routines less than minimum time automatically get penalized in Structure.

-Competitors can ask for a countdown and/or specific time cue.



Judging:

-2 judging categories of equal value, each category contains 2 criteria:

a-Content : Variety & Difficulty

b-Presentation : Execution & Structure


-2 judges per category. 2 Content judges and 2 Presentation judges.

-Each judge gives 2 score. 1 score per criteria.

-Subjective judging: 0-6 points scale for each criterion.

-A judge’s total score is out of 12 points.

-A competitor’s final score is out of 48 points.

-Pools are used to eliminate competitors.


Methodology:

-DJ puts some music between competitors.

-MC calls next competitor.

-Competitor goes on stage.

-Competitor can do few basic kicks and stalls.

-Competitor hand catches or toe freeze the bag.

-Competitor gives a cue to the DJ.

-DJ stops the music.

-Timer starts on first movement of the bag.

-Competitor performs his/her STP.

-MC gives a countdown and/or specific time cue. (If the competitor asked for it.)

-MC calls end of time.

-Competitor catches the bag.

-Competitor exits stage.

-DJ puts the music back on.



Detailed judging criteria:

A-CONTENT:


1-Variety:

a-Varied moves & links

b-Balance between Front & Cross contact (ex: toe & clipper)

c-Both sidedness


2-Difficulty:

a-Difficult moves & links

b-Long strings

c-Density


B-PRESENTATION:


1-Execution:

a-Clean dexes

b-Good bag control

c-Good body posture

d-Low drop count


2-Structure:

a-Beginning & ending

b-Themes (ex: spin&duck, shuffle, symposium, drills, osis moves, easy to difficult whirl moves, etc)

c-Dynamics (changes of speed, intensity, high&low set, front & cross contact, etc)

d-Transitions (between themes)

e-Time limit



STP version 1.0

Ianek Regimbald, 2008

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If you have any questions, email me back.

ianekregimbald at videotron dot ca


Ianek Regimbald
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[sen]

I don't see The need for another subjective event. Routines are fine and I like how different Shred30 is.
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[Muffinman]

Maybe I am just biased because it's Ianek, and Ianek is awesome, but to me it sounded neat not because of the event itself, but because it will help develop current and future events. It doesn't matter if this ends up being used ever again, in my opinion, but the results and the feedback from it will help fuel the progression of new events and help modify current ones. The more you experiment the closer you come to perfection. Or something. Jorden-esque. Like Benjamin Franklin said, [paraphrased because I have a sketchy memory] "I didn't fail; I found 500 methods that don't work, and that brings me 500 methods closer to one that will."
Sorry. That was terribly paraphrased.
I think you catch my drift.
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[max]

Before voicing my opinion on the new format, I'll wait and see how it plays out. I'm confident Ianek has put a lot of time, effort and thought into this (as he did with Circle Comp) and that although some fine-tuning may be in order this should be a cool event.

However, I'm not sold on having an event replace shred 30. Yes, we all know that shred 30 has a ton of drawbacks but it does have one colossal redeeming advantage: it gives you a final calculated score. No subjective judgments, no "artistic scores" (whatever that means on the year in question) etc. This I think is important for two groups especially:

- spectators
- newer players

When you do routines, does anyone think back and say "oh yeah at semis open routines in 2004 I scored a 4.7 in TM and a 4.2 in AM. That was the best I ever did."? I doubt it. At least with Shred30 there's a way to know how well you did and how you place against past performances and other players.

My 2 cents.

Regarding the new format: again, I'm very eager to see how this plays out. Props Ianek for pushing the sport in new directions!
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[Olav]

Yeah, Ianek IS awesome.

I totally appreciate the idea of this new technical competition, so different than shred 30 in a few major aspects. Just a few that come up to my mind: 1) It's not based on adds (which as we all know aren't perfect, BUT at the same time are the best objective way of valuing difficulty), so Flurrys, Ripsteins, Swifters will be worth more than Ripwalks, Sidewalks, Spinning Butterflys. 2) We should see more Duckings and Spinnings, tricks taking time, not just shuffle. 3) Variety counts. 4) Links count, finally. 5) And... there's no annoying music, hehe.

At the same time, I was sooo angry finding out there's no shred at worlds. The only objective competition with clear rules has sharply gone. Subjectively, it was the only thing I prepared for the last few months, being probably the second man to break the magic barrier, and hoping to even win the competition with some luck and positive mindset. Now I'm unsure how to prepare, to get the best possible results. Also, I'm not the only one who've been negatively surprised, at least in my country (not by STP!!, but disappearing shred 30).

Summing up, I'm happy for the improvement of technical competition, but on second thoughts I'm hesitant about replacing shred by something new, unknown. Nevertheless you're the best Ianek for creating another great competition, I'll later contact you to explain what specifically bothers me.
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[JoshC.]

This sounds like a pretty cool event, but i dont think it should be replacing something else, like shred30. For some people, shred30 is their favorite or best event. I think this new event should be added on with the rest of the events. Good luck, cant wait to see this event in action.
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[Rieferman]

Having subjectivity is good because it allows tricks we all know are harder to be properly valued even when add count doesn't give them "enough" credit.

On the other hand, what will we do when a dragon player, or even that sole stall player, steps in? Certainly there are only a few players in the world that can do those types of tricks right now - how do you score that?

Also, how do you judge difficult links? For Sunil (back in the day) flurry > pixie paradon was a bail. Ehhhh, I could give a bunch of examples, we all know what I mean >> difficult links change from player to player, so is it just what the judges personally find difficult?

Perhaps, you score more similar to shred 30 in terms of having a raw calculated score, and that score is just enhanced (or not) by originality and all the other subjective components. If the 'bonus' points are strong enough, that could be enough to add spice to the competition, and give all sorts of competitors a fighting chance, all while not counting out fast, shuffle etc. This takes away the "I've figured out the shred 30 formula" player from automatically winning.

One other suggestion.. At one of the Chilly Philly events that I held years ago, we ran a shred 30 type of event, with one small change. There was only 15 seconds between players. The crowd really enjoyed the 'no break in the action' format, and the entire event was over very quickly. Of course, all the scoring was done afterwards in this format, but it was very crowd friendly. Nothing disperses a crowd more quickly than dead time.

Oh, one other thing.. Crowd needs to understand what the judging criteria is. When we used to do demo's, the crowd was much more appreciative if we explained difficult vs. not-difficult, and then gave them an example (i.e. Kenny would rip something crazy out as compared to me doing some butterflies). If you're able to do that before hand, the crowd might really get into it.
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[Ners]

I don't think that getting rid of our only objective event is a step in the right direction. I understand that judging Shred30 is a nightmare (and at Worlds there will be tons of players), but still I think that this change was done too fast, and that STP shouldn't be tested at Worlds.

There should at least be an IFPA newsletter sent out about that, and some space for debate.

EDIT: This format is very similar to Circle Contest. I've participated in Circle Contest about 10 times already, and, as much as I like it, I know that with final players close in skill, the judges are very prone to mistakes.

EDIT2: Basically, I'm fine with having another event, diversity is always good, but I don't like the way it's being implemented, replacing Shred30.

Pozdrawiam
Szymon Kałwak (Ners)
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[sen]

My first post seemed more negative than I wanted it to last night. Sorry for putting up such a stupid first post. Other's have better expressed what I was trying to say.

The format itself does sound good. But to take out the only raw calculated event and replace it with another subjective, judged event doesn't seem like the right direction. I think Shred30 is great because you can sit down, figure out what you want to do. Calculate your score, practice it and then, if you hit in competition, you know your score. No waiting to see if the judges liked it, or if someone bought off the german judge (Figure skating reference, not prejudice). It's clean, clear cut. You can use your score to base your past and future performances.

[Anz]

I've frikking planned Shred30 for the first time ever - and you're telling me there's no Shred30?!
And you're already saying that it WILL replace Shred30. WTF?

This sounds like Shred mixed with Circle. Ianek, how do you see this competition being better than Shred30? You're just sick of adds? What new will this form of competition bring to footbag?
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[Outsider]

At the very least, this thread is quickly generating some good discussion...

I basically agree with most of whats already been said so far:

Ianek kicks ass - working hard to push the sport -- pushing in more than just one way --- pushing in ways that most people don't ---- a true innovater.

AND...

It does seem quite presumptuous to outright replace Shred30 at Worlds on somewhat short-notice. As has already been pointed out, or at least alluded to, Ianek's last innovation, the Circle Contest, didn't outright replace some other established competitive format, and Circle Contest had a few good test-runs at other (smaller, of course) events prior to being adopted at our sport's premier event.

BUT:

I'd like to move this discussion beyond those areas for the moment (perhaps another topic regarding Shred30 at Worlds) and re-focus the discussion here on this new format. We are already all aware of Shred30's strengths and weaknesses -- (in short -- Pros: a familiar event with objective standards of scoring whose results can, in principle, be planned in advance and easily compared to results from most previous or future events of the same format; -- and -- Cons: scores for "difficulty" using a system long known to be flawed, and who's format is biased towards faster players rather than better players, and, similarly, biased against more time-consuming moves. Also, scoring takes a great deal of time, making results unavailable until much later) -- and I don't really think we need to keep discussing the Shred30 event right now.

-- What I do want to know now is some more about this newly proposed event. I want to hear from Ianek (and/or Jordan, Honza, Tina, and Wiktor) about some specific areas of the Short Technical Program's scoring.

For instance:

[Rieferman]

I wrote:

[the Executioner]

I have questions on whether or not the World Championships is really the right venue for trying out new events.
Replacing an established event like shred 30--which people have already put routines together for--with a new experimental event, this close to the World Championships, seems to me to be a bit irresponsible. I'm not a huge fan of shred30, and I appreciate Ianek doing the work to try and improve the system, but perhaps there is a better place to try out new events than Worlds.
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[sen]

Bob, my highest Shred 30 score is about 85. In intermediate. I haven't "figured" it out in a way that I can score well. But I know how to make a shred 30 that would score well, should I be able to pull it off. My skill isn't there.

My point was more that Shred 30 is unique. Yes, it's flawed. I'm not disputing that. But it also isn't influenced by judges opinions of what is good or balanced. Maybe a judge likes the way Chad's double dexes look because of how his long legs make a huge window. That judge could feel that the trick was more styley when down by Chad, instead of by someone shorter like Vasek. Is that any better than Chad being "penalized" in shred 30 for being tall?

I like the idea of the STP, but am leary about it replacing shred 30. I don't think it's the fix for shred 30 we seem to be looking for. I look forward to going to Shredmonton next month and trying to beat my Shred 30 score from last year. If there were different judges or they thought differently about tricks this year, that wouldn't work for STP.
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[Rieferman]

Sen wrote:

[ianek]

Thanks everyone for the replys. It made me realize few things. I won't reply to everyone now because it's nice outside and i want to go shred


I agree on what you guys said about canceling shred30.

So, i'll contact Dexter very very soon to make sure shred30 will be at Worlds.

more soon
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[yyz]

I like the idea, but not the no music thing! Thats what makes freestyle FREESTYLE. You don't need me too tell you that(its in the description of events on footbag.org) I think with no music you should call it shred long program, not freestyle short program. see ya ted f
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[ianek]

[TheLast]

i agree with ianek the add sistem is to bad .... if you hit symp whirr (5add) it will give you the same points that a blurry whirl or something easy compared with the symposium whirr is just a example

pst: sry for the bad english


PC
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[ianek]

look at STP description again:

-i removed "no artistic criteria"

-i changed "toe & clipper" for "front and cross contact"

-and i added some info in Detailed judging criteria.



ianek
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